So you're saying a 4 door out sold a 2 door with a terrible back seat? Gtfo...
Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?
- Thread starter biminiLX
- Start date
don't shoot the messenger bud...i'm just relaying the news.
I saw a gt350 run a high 13 at 110 two weeks ago at the strip.
Plenty of reasons why, I’m sure. It did happen tho.
@tones_RS3 has a point...
Sent from my iPhone using the svtperformance.com mobile app
I beat a 5.0 2013 gt with a basically stock 1999 gt convertible from a dig to about 300ft a few weeks ago because he slept, roasted em and couldn’t shift while I cut a near perfect launch. Proves nothing. One car has 11’s on a tire the other is a 15 second car.
I beat a 500whp procharged 3300lb gt from a dig to 80mph with 3900lbs plus 275lb passenger 2015 5.0 with exhaust and maybe 400whp a week ago because my buddy bogged hard in the pro charged car and I killed it on the launch.
I beat a 350awhp sti in the same heavy 2015 5.0 making maybe 400whp from a dig because the sti had traction control on, and again I nailed the launch. Plus he couldn’t shift to save his life.
I’ve seen hellcats run 14’s. They are 11 second cars. Drivers can suck though.
I’ve seen 03 cobra’s run 15’s. They are 12 second cars, drivers can suck though.
I’ve destroyed hellcats in a bolt on gt350. I shouldn’t have, it hellcat driver spun and granny shifted. I didn’t.
Outside of driver error races or bad races with uneven starts, we know what these cars run.
Last edited:
4 door charger sales are fantastic, now consider how many rental companies take them, and how many fleets, police and municipalities use them.
Rental companies have 5-10 times as many chargers as mustangs at a minimum.
Police, city, federal and national organizations have probably 5 mustangs across the entire country. I doubt any are 2018’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if 15,000 of the chargers are literally in those hands.
Retail to retail, I laugh that the mustang is likely outselling a 4 door sedan by 2:1. Fleet and municipality sales are awesome and very smart on dodges account.
Unless someone can show me that the charger sales figures are retail 42k for the year, I’m sorry but that’s nothing impressive. Their fleet sales are probably 33% at a minimum meaning 28k for the year retail, which is close to 2/3rds of mustang sales to date.
Rental companies have 5-10 times as many chargers as mustangs at a minimum.
Police, city, federal and national organizations have probably 5 mustangs across the entire country. I doubt any are 2018’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if 15,000 of the chargers are literally in those hands.
Retail to retail, I laugh that the mustang is likely outselling a 4 door sedan by 2:1. Fleet and municipality sales are awesome and very smart on dodges account.
Unless someone can show me that the charger sales figures are retail 42k for the year, I’m sorry but that’s nothing impressive. Their fleet sales are probably 33% at a minimum meaning 28k for the year retail, which is close to 2/3rds of mustang sales to date.
First, it’s 42k YTD. Year to Date. So 6 months.
Second who cares who buys them? I thought the whole sales point was to illustrate the desirability of the car.
Third, the charger was brought up as I know it captures sales from the Challenger.
Viper a failure?
Didn't viper sell 600-700 cars in US annually?
Isn't the GT350 R selling 500-600 annually in US?
How is that a failure?
Because the Viper is a 1-Off car that Dodge was losing it's ass off while the GT350R is a Mustang with some factory mods allowing the cost of the car to be absorbed across 80,000 other cars sold?
By your own logic then, what do people want? Street Brawlers or Track Fairies?
GT350R - 600
2017 Dodge Challenger Hellcat - 2,976
2017 Dodge Charger Hellcat - 1,889
----------------------------------------------------------
2017 Model Year Total - 4,865
So 8:1?
My point is those cars are not the market segment
According to many, the Viper, as good a performer as it is, is a pile of compromises to live with; weird pedal box, steak searing side exhaust sills, ginormous 8.4L V10 "only" putting out 640HP, unloved interior and materials (although, the latest generation was pretty nice), etc.
The GT350R is a limited production vehicle, and every one made sells at, and above, sticker. Dodge makes as many Hellcats as they can sell, which isn't a bad thing, and even with all the hype, those aren't great sales numbers. More regular GT350s were sold in 2017 than both Hellcats combined. As much as you guys don't want to face it, more people like a more engaging driving experience than people who only want to go fast in a straight line.
Are we talking about sales numbers or profitability? Your earlier post seemed to indicate it was a failure due to sales. Now it's a failure due to profitability? Obviously a "special edition" based on a production car will be more profitable than a one-off project. I guess the Porsche 959 program was also a complete failure! Porsche lost an estimated $300k PER CAR!!!!!
By your logic, the real comparison is the GT350R versus the Demon. Both are limited edition versions of cars with base prices in the mid $20k range.
GT350R - 600
Demon - 3300
So the real question is who does number 2 work for
Let's be honest. The BMW and Porsche can zing around all day and be at or near those times. Fatty McPhats on the other hand will be showing the effects of its heft at any time after a lap or two, eventually driving like a boat on skates.
Good point.
Seems to me it's more like Dodge being happy to increase the pig population while Ford has no trouble making surgical tools scarce. Your numbers don't reflect demand but rather manufacturer imposed supply.
On point.
First: Having stated ytd in the post you're quoting, I question your reading comprehension.
Second: then let’s just talk about ford f series trucks because they obviously have the most people wanting them.
Third: it does. I brought up the f series because I know they capture sales from the mustang.
Selling 4 door sedans and trucks is more practical than 2 door giant coupes or small coupes. Only thing going for your assessment is that you can virtually option a charger or challenger the same, save the manual trans, and I get that. Where fords performance models like focus rs/st fiesta st, fusion sport, f150 ecoboost etc may eat at 5-10% of mustang sales on lot, Dodge probably sees 10-15% of people who come for a challenger buying a charger.
Now, put that in the opposite direction. I’d bet 5-10% of people coming for a charger end up buying a challenger. That cuts it down overall to about the same as cannibalized mustang sales. Thing is what else does Dodge sell to cannibalize challenger sales? The dart? Please. Why not bring up focus st and rs and fusion sport sales canibalizing mustang?
Nobody can account for all externalities. No harm or foul, but the picture you paint isn’t the end of the story. How many mustang sales were lost to Honda Accord coupes or bmw? The challenger buyer is not cross shopping like that, and more often is a Dodge loyalist, very patriotic, very pro America, and very happy to be able to buy something awesome and sporty with a v8 from dodge and more so mopar again after literally 40 years of basically mediocre choices. These are people who aren’t comparison shopping other coupes. They have worked 20-30 years, have cash or access to easy credit, hang the flag more than twice a year, and generally know they want a mopar to enjoy in their family loyalty to dodge.
Think 2009-14 camaro sales coming home, but instead of a 7 year hiatus, these folks had endured a 40ish year hiatus.
Also, I’ll flat out say Dodge is doing awesome with their v8’s. I love v8’s way more than turbo 6’s, and turbo 4’s. I love turbo v8’s a lot though.
Why ford abandoned v8’s is beyond me. I think the whole expedition into overhead cam proved to be complicated and a mixed bag. That amount of time and research into ohv tech would see what dodge and Chevy found. It ain’t broke, just improve and tweak.
I’m more invested in Dohc builds than 95% of mustang guys not running a race team and I can honestly say under 800hp, why bother.
Had ford kept ohv design, it would fit easy, and work well. Dohc is and will always be more capable, but it’s so easy to get 3-500hp from ohv in a tight small easy to implement design. Mpg is better in an ss camaro than a gt mustang as well... a 4500lbs charger v8 is nipping at 3700lbs gt mustang mpg...
Last edited:
Proof?
Once again, the numbers go against the belly achy that a Challenger drives like a dump truck.
Also, pretty sure the GT350 has some issues with the Tech Package cars going into limp mode on a road course, and that is a car marketed for road racing.
If you buy a Hellcat to dominate the local AutoX or circuit... well then you are doing it wrong.
Soo Dodge is more American and capitalistic while Ford is elitist and communistic?
I guess Ford is desperate for those Globalist sales.
Last edited:
Proof? How many Challenger bodied versions are tearing up road courses across the country? The comparison made was with respect to an M4 and a Cayman S. In that regard I suppose "dump truck" is a good fit.
Regarding the "Tech Pack" I can honestly say that Ford didn't promote that specific option choice as one being marketed for "road racing." That is not to say that the choice to sell a version so equipped wasn't a fail - it was.
You can twist it up in a weiner package if so inclined but that isn't the point. Ford chooses to limit R production and thus sales. As an enthusiast I appreciate the way Dodge is doing it. As much as I wish Ford would follow suit, they won't.
Regarding the "Tech Pack" I can honestly say that Ford didn't promote that specific option choice as one being marketed for "road racing." That is not to say that the choice to sell a version so equipped wasn't a fail - it was.
You can twist it up in a weiner package if so inclined but that isn't the point. Ford chooses to limit R production and thus sales. As an enthusiast I appreciate the way Dodge is doing it. As much as I wish Ford would follow suit, they won't.
Exactly what I’d do if I got a Hellcat Challenger wide body or Demon. Although the Demon would be manual swapped and road course prepped.
Pick your poison.
Users who are viewing this thread
