0.63 lambda at WOT????...

[sushistrip]

(AFR values in lambda)

Mods: intake, o/r xpipe, catback, 2.81 pulley, 60#s, BAP, and an AEM wideband failsafe gauge to read afr and boost.

I recently had the car tuned for e85 and it made ~480/~440...pathetic torque figures for e85, and the power delivery reflects it. The situation didn't allow me time to figure it out at the shop because I live 5 hours away and had stuff to do. This was two months ago.

Today I finally got the wideband installed and took it for a run. Firstly, I'm only making 12lbs of boost when I should be making 14lbs (they messed with my vacuum/boost lines when I got it tuned, I've pulled it all apart and put it back together and still no change). At WOT in any gear the afr hits 0.63 every time. After doing some research it is my understanding that this should be at around 0.82 at WOT for e85. Also, tonight it just started bucking when I floor it, feels almost exactly like traction control kicking in. I'm thinking this might be a plug but the plugs that are in it only have like...500 miles on them (they didn't gap the plugs when they installed them at the shop, took them right from the package to the car, idk if this is correct or not). Any advice would be appreciated, let me know if you want some more information.

Another big thing to note is cylinder #1 has detonation on the piston =(. This plug was covered in oil, I just peaked down through the spark plug hole and can clearly see the pitting. The car runs absolutely beautifully everywhere except WOT. Smokes on startup 2/10 times.

 

[ctgreddy]

While e85 does like a richer setting, .63 seems way too much. I believe .71 is the most you want with e85 at wot. I'd be a little afraid of the tune personally. Do you know about how much timing they put in?

Hp numbers don't sound too bad, but torque does seem quite low, at your level it should atleast be the same as your hp number. I'd change the plugs and check the gap, I'd put them at about .032. If they used tr6's than those usually have a gap around .036 out of the box but that's weird they wouldn't atleast check them.

But, I'd be worried about that one cylinder. If you can see pitting on the piston just by glancing in the plug hole you have a problem. I'd do a compression test and leak down on it to see if something's actually bad.

 

[04sleeper]

.78 Lambda would be the preferred choice for WOT on E85.

If your motor was hurt before hand, it would be down on power for sure.

You won't detonate on E85.

I would suggest a compression test and leak down to check the health of the motor.

 

[sushistrip]

Thanks for the replies! Timing at WOT is 23.5. He said don't worry about testing the fuel for ethanol content, which I think is the most ridiculous advice ever, even if my timing is super low for e85.

My wideband sensor is on the side with the fouled plug and damaged piston, but at WOT it sticks right at 0.63-0.64 even with the bucking. I might also note I'm pulling 18lbs of vacuum at idle, 16lbs when I turn the a/c on. I thought vacuum was supposed to be around 20-21lbs? I'll probably rent a compression tester, I feel like if I have notable damage on that cylinder it will be reflected with just the compression test.

My thoughts were the same, if there was something wrong with my motor how did I make what is pretty much expected hp figures for e85 with my mods? As I said before, everything except WOT feels great, it just completely falls on it's face when I floor it. I'm still perplexed as to why they let me leave making 40-50 less torque than would be expected. Should I be asking for a refund? Lol

 

[cj428mach]

.78 Lambda would be the preferred choice for WOT on E85.

If your motor was hurt before hand, it would be down on power for sure.

You won't detonate on E85.

I would suggest a compression test and leak down to check the health of the motor.

I'd pm this guy and buy an e85 tune from him. I think he is the expert on the stuff.

 

[sushistrip]

I just went out after changing all the spark plugs. It still bucks at WOT, like almost immediately when I floor it and keeps bucking until I let off, afr was still the same at 0.63. They basically deleted my egr in the tune, so the top of the valve wasn't hooked up when he tuned it. Recently I completely deleted the egr valve and tube going to the exhaust manifold, so the EGR transducer isn't plugged into the car anymore, could this be causing the bucking?

 

[04sleeper]

.63 Lambda is pig rich. My guess is it is falling on its face because of too much fuel.

 

[sushistrip]

.63 Lambda is pig rich. My guess is it is falling on its face because of too much fuel.

It's intermittent though, the bucking. Last night I had a couple runs in third where it bucked once or twice at the hit and then was smooth, was slow as balls, but smooth. It also completely loses power up top like after 5k rpm, like the rpm acceleration slows down a ton. I did buy used injectors, however I did the hold a screw driver to the injector while it's running and listen for the pulses and it they all sounded fine. Could an injector fail to where it's supplying too much fuel? Also, my afr doesn't jump around when it buck, it goes to 0.63 and stays there under WOT.

I should note, my wideband uses the Bosch UEGO sensor and I have it in my rear O2. I called AEM and they said if it's too far back it will read leaner than normal, I doubt this is too far back though because it reads 0.93-0.97 at idle. Idk if this is relevant or not lol.

Here are the results of my compression test. My procedure was let the car idle for about 10 minutes, remove bap fuse, remove fuel pump fuse, and remove all spark plugs. I cranked each cylinder 10 times. I've read that some people do it with the throttle open, I didn't do this. I should note the car had been sitting for about 30 minutes after it warmed up because I had to run to the store, Idk how much that would affect the readings.
#1: 145
#2: 145
#3: 145
#4: 145
#5: 140
#6: 140
#7: 135
#8: 150
I tested them in the order they're listed. Cylinder #1 is the one where I noticed detonation and the sparkplug completely saturated in oil, even all the way up the threads. From what I've read these numbers are extremely low, but the lack of a big difference between cylinders would suggest it's relatively healthy?

One more thing, I didn't gap the new plugs before I put them in last night. I figured if they weren't gapped when he tuned it I shouldn't gap them now.

Thanks again for any advice.

 

[cj428mach]

It's intermittent though, the bucking. Last night I had a couple runs in third where it bucked once or twice at the hit and then was smooth, was slow as balls, but smooth. It also completely loses power up top like after 5k rpm, like the rpm acceleration slows down a ton. I did buy used injectors, however I did the hold a screw driver to the injector while it's running and listen for the pulses and it they all sounded fine. Could an injector fail to where it's supplying too much fuel? Also, my afr doesn't jump around when it buck, it goes to 0.63 and stays there under WOT.

I should note, my wideband uses the Bosch UEGO sensor and I have it in my rear O2. I called AEM and they said if it's too far back it will read leaner than normal, I doubt this is too far back though because it reads 0.93-0.97 at idle. Idk if this is relevant or not lol.

Here are the results of my compression test. My procedure was let the car idle for about 10 minutes, remove bap fuse, remove fuel pump fuse, and remove all spark plugs. I cranked each cylinder 10 times. I've read that some people do it with the throttle open, I didn't do this. I should note the car had been sitting for about 30 minutes after it warmed up because I had to run to the store, Idk how much that would affect the readings.
#1: 145
#2: 145
#3: 145
#4: 145
#5: 140
#6: 140
#7: 135
#8: 150
I tested them in the order they're listed. Cylinder #1 is the one where I noticed detonation and the sparkplug completely saturated in oil, even all the way up the threads. From what I've read these numbers are extremely low, but the lack of a big difference between cylinders would suggest it's relatively healthy?

One more thing, I didn't gap the new plugs before I put them in last night. I figured if they weren't gapped when he tuned it I shouldn't gap them now.

Thanks again for any advice.

First pull the plugs and gap them. When you're trying to eliminate problems don't cause more headaches because you throw more variables into the mix like not checking plug gap.

Do you have the ability to datalog? If so datalog your stft during WOT that should tell you what your tuner is commanding, then you need to find out if you're getting what is commanded. If your tuner commanded .63 then the tune is junk. If he commanded .78 and you're getting .63 then your tune was never put together right or it was right and you're now fighting a mechanical problem.

 

[sushistrip]

First pull the plugs and gap them. When you're trying to eliminate problems don't cause more headaches because you throw more variables into the mix like not checking plug gap.

Do you have the ability to datalog? If so datalog your stft during WOT that should tell you what your tuner is commanding, then you need to find out if you're getting what is commanded. If your tuner commanded .63 then the tune is junk. If he commanded .78 and you're getting .63 then your tune was never put together right or it was right and you're now fighting a mechanical problem.

What should I gap them too? They are the NGK R br7e I think. I can datalog using Live Link 2.0, I think thats what its called, do you know exactly what the stft paramter is called ( I'm assuming "short term fuel trim" but I've never logged it before so idk)? I data logged last night and during the middle of the run the fuel rail pressure went from 40 to 36 and back to 40, but as I said before, my afr didn't move.

 

[cj428mach]

What should I gap them too? They are the NGK R br7e I think. I can datalog using Live Link 2.0, I think thats what its called, do you know exactly what the stft paramter is called ( I'm assuming "short term fuel trim" but I've never logged it before so idk)? I data logged last night and during the middle of the run the fuel rail pressure went from 40 to 36 and back to 40, but as I said before, my afr didn't move.

I use livelink 6.5 as I think I've read 2.0 is glitchy.

You'll see fluctuations like that in fuel pressure thats normal.

I'd try the .032 as suggested earlier.

 

[sushistrip]

I use livelink 6.5 as I think I've read 2.0 is glitchy.

You'll see fluctuations like in fuel pressure thats normal.

I'd try the .032 as suggested earlier.

Will do, I'll try and datalog tomorrow night. I reflashed my tune before I went to work earlier. I did a quick pull in 3rd and then 2nd on my way home tonight and there was no bucking.

 

[sushistrip]

Datalogged tonight. I gapped spark plugs to .032. Stft is 0.79. My afr was at 0.68 this time around. I did fill up about 6 gallons from a different station, so there's about half from one station and half from this recent fill up because the first station's pumps were broken or something. I tested the recent fill up and it came out about E70. If it was tuned on actual E85 and I'm running E70 would the afr drop that much? I can post the log if you want it.

Something to note: When I was cruising at about 60 and would take my foot off the accelerator completely the afr jumps to like 1.14. It also jumps up in between shifts. This is after i gapped my plugs though, maybe somethin to do with that?

 

[03redfirevert.]

E-70 will cause it to run richer ,If he ran the tune a lil on the fat side then it would def hurt power and run like crap under wot since the map will run open loop.If you have a Krogers nearby,I have always tested their fuel to over 90%,even as high as 92

 

[sushistrip]

E-70 will cause it to run richer ,If he ran the tune a lil on the fat side then it would def hurt power and run like crap under wot since the map will run open loop.If you have a Krogers nearby,I have always tested their fuel to over 90%,even as high as 92

If I recall I think the printout was around 11.2-11.5 afr, so about 0.76ish, which is close to what hes commanding. Would E70 really cause it to drop down to something like 0.63-0.68?

 

[03redfirevert.]

11.2 is pretty fat , .76 is 11.17 afr according to my calc.and e70 would def push you past

10.1afr
.63 btw is 9.26 afr,you are washing the oil off the rings at this point!

If I recall I think the printout was around 11.2-11.5 afr, so about 0.76ish, which is close to what hes commanding. Would E70 really cause it to drop down to something like 0.63-0.68?

 

[cj428mach]

If I recall I think the printout was around 11.2-11.5 afr, so about 0.76ish, which is close to what hes commanding. Would E70 really cause it to drop down to something like 0.63-0.68?

Yes it can make a huge difference.

I was tuning on e85 from the kwik shop in Maize (tests between e85-e90). I then had a friend who owns a small fuel station make me a drum of e85 so I could have some at my house. He was supposed to shoot for at least e85 but it tested about e60. My car ran super rich about 1 full point richer at wot, it was bad enough at idle that I got a code for O2's rich on both banks. Connor told me that the e85 he was testing on the south edge of Wichita was 60% range so that can really throw you off depending upon how it was tuned.

If you're not getting e85 from the kwik shop in Maize give it a shot, me and Nxs450 have both tested it multiple times at e85+.

 

[04sleeper]

You can raise the stoich in the tune to accommodate the different % of Ethanol.

Here. This should help you if you ever want to figure it out.
http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/e85fuel

 

[sushistrip]

Thanks for the advice guys. Mike, I did get some fuel from the station in Maize, big difference! Did a wot pull in 3rd with about 75% fuel in the tank from that station and 25% e70 and afr was at 0.74. Felt pretty strong, I need to switch my gauge to read boost on the digital to see what it's doing though. Something I noticed after gapping my plugs; every once in a while when I let off the throttle to shift if I'm just driving around town the afr will jump to 1.22 (that's the max the gauge can read), maybe I should close the gap a little bit? They are NGK R BR7E and I gapped them to .032 per the suggestions on here.

 

[cj428mach]

thats normal for your AFR/LAMBDA to max lean when you let off your throttle. Its a feature to save fuel.

Sounds like things are going well, I hope you keep the car. I love the wheels on it. Talk to Alan about porting your blower and really enjoy the car.