Timing components question

Hi

I’m (slowly) gathering pieces to build a new engine. I’d like to do it once / do it right. I’ve bought new lifters, but wondering if I can clean and reuse the stock followers/rockers. The rollers look smooth and all turn freely, and aside from a shiny spot on the underside of each one where they rode on the valve stem, they look fine.

Timing guides… Do I need to upgrade to billet pieces? Getting some second opinions here. I have the block tapped for the larger pins already so that’s addressed. Happy to spend the $$ if needed, but wanted to see what everyone thinks. I looked and looked and never came across any threads of these guides breaking.

Favorite options for sprockets? There are the billet secondaries from L&M, the discontinued/can’t find Cloyes pieces, or stock. Comp makes adjustable primaries, and there are stock primaries. Reuse stock cam spacers or billet/aftermarket?

It will be 10.5:1 on E85 with ~25lbs with a six speed.

Thank you

Phil

i believe that recent john mihovitz link in terminator talk addresses alot of these things, based on your goals i would be looking into his recommendations if it were my money

You can reuse the stock followers and rockers no problem, I have reused mine many many times. The GT500 stuff is a nice upgrade and there is a way to do it cheaper than paying retail for Ford parts.

Guides are only necessary if you are going to be on the 2-step on the regular. I have seen guys break stock guides so it does happen. It's always the same playbook, they are at the track and on the 2-step.

For cam sprockets, I am lucky and bought all the Cloyes billet stuff years ago. The vast majority use stock. The L&M secondary gears are pretty pricey. The Comp gears will help you adjust the exhaust cams, but you'll be filing keys to do the intake. Even with the Cloyes adjustable gears, I was nowhere even close to where one cam needed to be and got rid of the key altogether and just tightened the bolt to 150 ft/lbs. Next time it comes apart, I will buy the Accufab billet cam spacers just because of that.

Subbing in on this as I'm right in the middle of gather parts for a build.

P49Y-CY said:

i believe that recent john mihovitz link in terminator talk addresses alot of these things, based on your goals i would be looking into his recommendations if it were my money

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I’d read that - thanks for the link. John Mihovitz doesn’t really comment on the use of stock followers. There was only a brief mention of GT followers but not clear as to whether or not there was any benefit. This won’t go past 7,000-7,200rpm.

badcobra said:

You can reuse the stock followers and rockers no problem, I have reused mine many many times. The GT500 stuff is a nice upgrade and there is a way to do it cheaper than paying retail for Ford parts.

Guides are only necessary if you are going to be on the 2-step on the regular. I have seen guys break stock guides so it does happen. It's always the same playbook, they are at the track and on the 2-step.

For cam sprockets, I am lucky and bought all the Cloyes billet stuff years ago. The vast majority use stock. The L&M secondary gears are pretty pricey. The Comp gears will help you adjust the exhaust cams, but you'll be filing keys to do the intake. Even with the Cloyes adjustable gears, I was nowhere even close to where one cam needed to be and got rid of the key altogether and just tightened the bolt to 150 ft/lbs. Next time it comes apart, I will buy the Accufab billet cam spacers just because of that.

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Thanks Tony. I know we’d talked about this before, probably going to fall into what seems like the modular trap of ‘might as well spend another $___ while I’m in there,’ or risk being out ~$15,000 trying to save a bit of money. I might just go with new Cloyes non-adjustable secondary gears and get the Comp primaries to save from having to file two gears lol. I saw the Accufab spacers, but I have the ARP washers and 12mm bolts already paid for, so I’d be spending $125 for two cam washers. Again, if it’s necessary I’ll do it, but I don’t want to spend $$ if not indicated.

PS I talked with Jason for a while today. Going to get a shipping quote on the heads and get them out there for his treatment. Looking forward to getting that taken care of and underway.

Phil

If you have a full keyway added to your crank (if it's not too late) I'd have no problem using the Trick Flow gears. If not, weld or pin them. All Cloyes or L&M are the way to go. No chance of slipping timing.

My buddy had a very well known engine builder do his, relied on TQ only, no keyways.... guess what, they replaced his motor and some cash to stay out of court after it slipped as some hush money.

I run Cloyes on my intake cams and the Trick Flow crank gears that are welded on my car. No issues, looking back, I would have run Cloyes on all cams and been worried free. I did ARP 2000 everything.

Thanks Tony. I know we’d talked about this before, probably going to fall into what seems like the modular trap of ‘might as well spend another $___ while I’m in there,’ or risk being out ~$15,000 trying to save a bit of money. I might just go with new Cloyes non-adjustable secondary gears and get the Comp primaries to save from having to file two gears lol. I saw the Accufab spacers, but I have the ARP washers and 12mm bolts already paid for, so I’d be spending $125 for two cam washers. Again, if it’s necessary I’ll do it, but I don’t want to spend $$ if not indicated.

PS I talked with Jason for a while today. Going to get a shipping quote on the heads and get them out there for his treatment. Looking forward to getting that taken care of and underway.

Phil

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I'm not familiar with the new Cloyes secondary gears. Can you link those? Are they billet? I think those Accufab spacers are necessary when you have to torque the cam bolt down to 150 ft/lbs like I did to hold the cam. My opinion also is your stock followers and adjusters are fine to reuse. I am still using mine from 2005 and many engine rebuilds since then.

Good deal with Jason! I have another set of '03 Cobra heads over there he is going to be getting started on for me soon. Ductile iron seats, oversize Manley valves, BTR springs and the full port treatment.

CLOYES S790A Timing Cam Sprocket | RockAuto

I probably should’ve worded that better. “New“ as in not reusing. Not sure these are anything better than what’s on the car already, though. It seems crazy that the only alternative to the stock replacement gears are $400. No real middle ground.

Thanks for the heads up about the cam spacers. Good to hear you have some head over there right now, but I bet your drive across town was easier than trying to ship these things!

phil a said:

CLOYES S790A Timing Cam Sprocket | RockAuto

I probably should’ve worded that better. “New“ as in not reusing. Not sure these are anything better than what’s on the car already, though. It seems crazy that the only alternative to the stock replacement gears are $400. No real middle ground.

Thanks for the heads up about the cam spacers. Good to hear you have some head over there right now, but I bet your drive across town was easier than trying to ship these things!

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Phil, just get the factory ford secondary gears. They are cheaper and better quality. 1998-2014 Ford Camshaft Gear F8ZZ-6256-AA | Auto Nation Ford White Bear Lake

As long as your rockers spin freely, don't have any hairline fractures, things like that they should be fine. New lifters are always good insurance. Make sure to soak them in oil overnight before you install.

The GT500 rockers are nice but not necessary and (I think?) have to be used with their lifters or you'll have oil pressure issues. The benefit to those rockers is they are cupped where they contact the lifter, whereas the Termi stuff has a pinhole there. The absence of the hole results in higher oil pressures and can be beneficial if you're turning higher rpm's or doing sustained WOT runs. I'm not sure if it makes any difference for higher compression motors or not. If you're using a 3V/GT500 oil pump for increased flow, the GT500 followers are a good way to round out the oiling.

For sprockets, the Comp primaries are all that's available right now, but make sure to get the V2 versions (dark). The older stuff was known for slipping. Comp have corrected this with the newer gears.

Secondaries there's L&M and MMR also makes billet units for a bit less. They also make a billet one piece crankshaft gear (not adjustable). I would also definitely upgrade the trigger wheel from stamped steel to a billet piece. Again, MMR has one and so does Accufab, but there's requires a particular crankshaft gear be run to use it.

Lastly, if you're running big 12mm ARP bolts on the cams, I would pick up a set of the Accufab spacers as well. The increased torque of those bolts has been known to warp the factory spacers and is good insurance.

DCguy said:

As long as your rockers spin freely, don't have any hairline fractures, things like that they should be fine. New lifters are always good insurance. Make sure to soak them in oil overnight before you install.

The GT500 rockers are nice but not necessary and (I think?) have to be used with their lifters or you'll have oil pressure issues. The benefit to those rockers is they are cupped where they contact the lifter, whereas the Termi stuff has a pinhole there. The absence of the hole results in higher oil pressures and can be beneficial if you're turning higher rpm's or doing sustained WOT runs. I'm not sure if it makes any difference for higher compression motors or not. If you're using a 3V/GT500 oil pump for increased flow, the GT500 followers are a good way to round out the oiling.

For sprockets, the Comp primaries are all that's available right now, but make sure to get the V2 versions (dark). The older stuff was known for slipping. Comp have corrected this with the newer gears.

Secondaries there's L&M and MMR also makes billet units for a bit less. They also make a billet one piece crankshaft gear (not adjustable). I would also definitely upgrade the trigger wheel from stamped steel to a billet piece. Again, MMR has one and so does Accufab, but there's requires a particular crankshaft gear be run to use it.

Lastly, if you're running big 12mm ARP bolts on the cams, I would pick up a set of the Accufab spacers as well. The increased torque of those bolts has been known to warp the factory spacers and is good insurance.

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Awesome post - thank you. I have 64 rockers to choose from, so I’ll get 32 good ones out of that bunch and just clean really well and re-oil. I did buy new OEM lifters...chickened out and they weren’t horribly expensive. The GT stuff, you’re right, requires 16 different lifters to use with those followers. It’s my understanding that that setup, like you said, is either for high RPMs or sustained WOT.

I did grab a stamped trigger wheel, probably the only really inexpensive thing so far lol. I’m going to avoid MMR given their reputation from tons of posts I’ve seen throughout the years, but will get a Cloyes billet gear if the Sealed Power gear I just ordered turns out to be cast/powdered.

You’re the second person I’ve heard mention the Accufab cam spacers. Hard to stomach paying $125 for a few washers, but might be the best/only option.

Thanks for all of the input thus far! Now I just have to decide whether or not to get a stand-alone....
I have no clue nor much ability to tune, much less understand that language no matter how much I read...I just can’t make it make sense. I like the idea of the Holley or the MS3 PnP for their controls, data logging, and failsafes. Also those low impedance injectors are about 1/3 the price, which is nice! Anyone run these and have feelings/ideas/input? Something simple to set up and use would be A+ for me.

Thanks again and keep the info coming!

Phil

MMR is fine for parts. Just never have them assemble or work on anything for you: quality control is less then lacking!