E85 whats needed

[BADASS03SVT]

sub'ing

I wish it was further into the year so I could do my swap. my plan as of right now is to get my car back together and dyno it and hit the track for a week or 2 THEN swap the pumps and injectors over and run some E85....then dyno it and hit the track again with no other changes.

for me...a 5% hp/tq gain I would be happy with if I could see it on the track. Im still with the Eaton and trying to get every ounce of hp I can and right now there is nothing left. I run a mix of 93/104. The 104 costs me $8/gal and 93 has been $2.60-2.80/gal so Im right around $11/gal. Even if I used 50% more fuel to run E85, Im ahead big time.

Im already at 24 degree's of timing on my current tune so thats where my concern comes in for "actually" gaining the hp. All I can do is try and if it fails, its not a hard switch back and I have a better fuel system to run a bog shot of nitrous...LOL

 

[utfan98]

Badass,

I have been following your stump E85 post on the other site. I am anxious to see your numbers considering your boosted Eaton. I respect your trial.

I will reply to you for obvious reasons.

I truely believe that you will see a better than race gas tune on your car. This E85 stuff will work better with higher boosted applications. It doesn't matter if it is an Eaton, KB, Magnacharger, Whipple, Centrif, Cobra, Vega, Chevy, Pinto.

Instead of bashing and saying I made 110 HP with E85, look at things. There is a correlation of IAT2 and your gains. What would be ideal is knowing the IAT's number in which E85 will be beneficial. That article on the E85 Terminator showed (5%, I think haven't read it in a while) peak gains anywhere along the graft. No surprise....that is what it's suppose to do, that is what OEMs are advertising on NA. I agree with sleeper in that it was not high boost, therefore, no unrealistic gains. When the article was published, how many people went out and converted based on the numbers?...0.


Since the release of the GT 500 (duel FPDMs), the release of the Fore hat, the lastest release of 80's, and pumps (that do not have to be Ford supercar), all make this an easier mod for the use of E85. People are jumping on the wagon. This mod was a 2,000-3,000 project 3-4 years go. Now it is a 1,500 weekend swap, more people will be doing it. Race gas have doubled in pricve over the last 3-4 years as well.

So, let me say the what the "must" are since 04sleeper was too immature to answer.

You must have a higher boosted (i.e. higher heat generating) power adder. For the Eaton it may be 19# for a 2.3L Whippe 21#....I do not know. It has to do with IAT's and obviousy all the other basic mods as well. Look at any top alcohol class in racing, what are they running most or all of the time.......VERY HIGH BOOSTED (30-40 psi) somethings.

So instead of the Big Texan Ego numbers, look at what is going on here. As Godstang states the power gain was after the mid-range. My mid range with increase via reprograming is 3500, the mid (middle) of the range. Their mid-range is compararable to the world's most powerful modular motor, John Mihovez's.

Why is the power seen after the mid-range?...I do not know. My dollar goes on IAT's. Where is their grafts with IAT's 2 comparable to HP gains....this is what may help those who want to convert to E85, or a start as what they want you to do. Too bad there is not a pre-combustion inside cylinder temp sensor. Yes the power will keep climbing...as your are dumbing a TON of fuel in the clylinders, why COOLING effect, extra oxygen. May lead to hydrolock...I do not know, someone find out for us. How much fuel I do not know. Where is James when you need him?...

You must have a fuel upgrade which everyone now wants to know how, what and why, how big/small.

These Texans are claming that it is Holy Water or liquid gold....it is not.

I think a safe bet is AVERAGE 8% over your race gas (average 105 Octane, so 100-110) tune with all else equal. This is nothing new....it is new to the Termiator world because of the availability and ease to install the parts needed.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Badass,

I have been following your stump E85 post on the other site. I am anxious to see your numbers considering your boosted Eaton. I respect your trial.

I will reply to you for obvious reasons.

I truely believe that you will see a better than race gas tune on your car. This E85 stuff will work better with higher boosted applications. It doesn't matter if it is an Eaton, KB, Magnacharger, Whipple, Centrif, Cobra, Vega, Chevy, Pinto.

Instead of bashing and saying I made 110 HP with E85, look at things. There is a correlation of IAT2 and your gains. What would be ideal is knowing the IAT's number in which E85 will be beneficial. That article on the E85 Terminator showed (5%, I think haven't read it in a while) peak gains anywhere along the graft. No surprise....that is what it's suppose to do, that is what OEMs are advertising on NA. I agree with sleeper in that it was not high boost, therefore, no unrealistic gains. When the article was published, how many people went out and converted based on the numbers?...0.


Since the release of the GT 500 (duel FPDMs), the release of the Fore hat, the lastest release of 80's, and pumps (that do not have to be Ford supercar), all make this an easier mod for the use of E85. People are jumping on the wagon. This mod was a 2,000-3,000 project 3-4 years go. Now it is a 1,500 weekend swap, more people will be doing it. Race gas have doubled over th last 3-4 years as well/

So, let me say the must are since 04sleeper was too immature to answer.

You must have a higher boosted (i.e. higher heat generating) power adder. For the Eaton it may be 19# for a 2.3L Whippe 21#....I do not know. It has to do with IAT's and obviousy all the other basic mods as well. Look at any top alcohol class in racing, what are they running most or all of the time.......VERY HIGH BOOSTED (30-40 psi) somethings.

So instead of the Big Texan Ego numbers, look at what is going on here. As Godstang states the power gain was after the mid-range. My mid range with increase via reprograming is 3500, the mid (middle) of the range. Their mid-range is compararable to the world's most powerful modular motor, John Mihovez's.

Why is the power seen after the mid-range?...I do not know. My dollar goes on IAT's. Where is their graft with IAT's 2 comparable to HP gains....this is what will help those who want to convert to E85, as what they want you to do. Too bad there is not a combustion temp sensor. Yes the power will keep climbing...as your are dumbing a TON of fuel in the clylinders, why COOLING effect. May lead to hydrolock...I do not, someone find out for us. How much fuel I do not know. Where is James when you need him?...

You must have a fuel upgrade which everyone now wants to know how, what and why, how big/small.

These Texans are claming that it is Holy Water or liquid gold....it is not.

I think a safe bet is AVERAGE 8% over your race gas (average 105 Octane, so 100-110) tune with all else equal. This is nothing new....it is new to the Termiator world because of the availability and ease to install the parts needed.

a little confusion maybe on my part....you keep saying high boost...what is that considered? I only see 15-16psi on my car.

and which IAT number are we tallking about? Im assuming the IAT2 number which I seem to have great control of right now staying under 95 degree's down the 1320'.

 

[plan b]

a little confusion maybe on my part....you keep saying high boost...what is that considered? I only see 15-16psi on my car.

and which IAT number are we tallking about? Im assuming the IAT2 number which I seem to have great control of right now staying under 95 degree's down the 1320'.

You can drive that thing down the track consistently so when you convert we'll get real world results instead of all the dyno queen's posting up all the jibberish:rockon:

 

[BADASS03SVT]

You can drive that thing down the track consistently so when you convert we'll get real world results instead of all the dyno queen's posting up all the jibberish:rockon:

thanks!

thats the plan...to drive the wheels off of it and see what I get. I did really well with the lower intake port and tuning the a/f and timing on back to back passes. and it was nice to show everyone real results and it seemed to be appreciated and liked so Ill continue to do it as much as I change the car. Plus I like doing it so that helps alot!

 

[utfan98]

a little confusion maybe on my part....you keep saying high boost...what is that considered? I only see 15-16psi on my car.

and which IAT number are we tallking about? Im assuming the IAT2 number which I seem to have great control of right now staying under 95 degree's down the 1320'.

clearly stated.......For the Eaton it may be 19# for a 2.3L Whippe 21#....I do not know.......Common sense tells me the more boost your have the more affect at cooling and gaining HP...maybe 16 is enough. lower/mildly boosted E85 terminator write up showed 5% peak increase....take it for what it is worth.

19#-20#/21# (a 2.76 and 4# non LT'd car) makes more sense. More heat needs
more cooling, more cooling leads to ability to apply more timing and boost, more boost means more oxygen, more oxygen to increase HP.

An unrealistic answer: IAT 3's and oxygen sensors inside the cylinder or at the tip of the injector or something like that. That is where it all happens.....for any discussion about cooling effect with gas/ethanol/methanol added to the cumbustion chamber. What about the oxygen content? Is is considered an oxygenated fuel, maybe less of a reason to make HP.

So, yes the more reasonable answer your second quesiton, is IAT's 2 for our cars. You MUST bench race and deduce. Reasoning that most evaluate IAT's, if your IAT 2's are say between 120-195 you will see 60-90 HP gain, 95 your see 20. I DO NOT KNOW. Why is 04sleeper and friends seeing 13% increase over race tune?

Food for thought, what about EGT's can they help us tune these E85 cars? Are our stock exahust valves and seals going to fail over time if we drive hard and run 100% E85 with 700 HP to the wheel? More oxygen plus more fuel = more heat on the exhaust side. Is there a point where your need upgraded exhaust valves? Are cats going to with stand the heat? I don't know the answers. I am I stupid for thinking this? Maybe I am looking more into it than needed, I surely did based on the numbers reported.

It has been reported, tried and true in other areas outside the Terminator world that an 6-8% (more 8%) gain over 105 race (most say race gas) tune on a higher boosted application.

 

[vadorsnake04]

Real intelligent post! Full of facts. :rollseyes



Wow! Just when you thought the intelligence level couldn't get any lower.

I never said anything about GT260 messing up anything, just that E85 made WAY more power on the same boost! Just funny, that's all.

BTW: Sunoco GT 260 is only 100 Octane. Not 110. Maybe you do need to go back to Google. (Even though it didn't help you here) You just keep digging your ditch the more you post. I would quit if I were you.

I was just about to say this because my race tune was done with Sunoco leaded 110, and i looked at there 100 octane which was the GT260.

 

[utfan98]

Changes in Gasloine IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests

 

[04sleeper]

So, let me say the what the "must" are since 04sleeper was too immature to answer.

You must have a higher boosted (i.e. higher heat generating) power adder. For the Eaton it may be 19# for a 2.3L Whippe 21#....I do not know. It has to do with IAT's and obviousy all the other basic mods as well. Look at any top alcohol class in racing, what are they running most or all of the time.......VERY HIGH BOOSTED (30-40 psi) somethings.

You have been the only one immature here! Get over yourself! Also, it is NOT a MUST to have a higher boosted power adder to see the benefit. The only thing I provided were FACTS of what we found with this particular application! I never said people would see the same gains with less boost or even this boost. I just said this is what we have seen. REAL WORLD PROOF. Not what you believe to read on what "Should Be".

These Texans are claming that it is Holy Water or liquid gold....it is not.

Please show me where I said this? I simply stated results and facts. You have only proven you know how to copy and paste. But if you want to call E85 "Liquid Gold" then please do so. For $2 per gallon it simply can not be beat!

Changes in Gasloine IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests

Great job Mr. Wikipedia copy/paste. But your hypothesis has a few holes in it. A retailer "Chooses". Well my retailer "Chooses" to mix the Ethanol here with 87 Octane and I have tested the Ethanol content to be 85% so I AM getting a TRUE 105 Octane.

BTW: (E100) Ethanol's RON is 129 (102 MON, 116 AKI) :beer:

 

[94venomV8]

To get the post back on track lol. If I wanted to change over to this on my 98 cobra, would dual walbro external pumps be enough with 80lbs injectors? And is that all I would have to do? I can just use the same regulator and filter or do they have to be special.

 

[69gt4speed]

^ that should be enough I know of a 03 engine swap w a 2.4kb running 17# w return dual walboros and 80# cj injectors and nitrous..

I am a skeptic also the e85 but after many dsm's and now ninesecsnakes 5.4 tt car can say no way a 93 oct car can make that much hp same setup w safe tune. The problem is fuel delivery mostly cause like was said btu per # of fuel is less. The 5.4 tt needs 12 160# injectors if he turns it up to 28/30# boost. Dsm's been doing +32# boost, 93 oct. just can't do it. The tt 5.4 runs e98 also still lot cheaper than q16 turbo gasoline. Want some track proof look here...18# boost on dr.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADlgRamHe2E"]YouTube- Twin Turbo 93 Cobra in car 8.80@160 18lbs of boost.[/ame]

 

[utfan98]

To get the post back on track lol. If I wanted to change over to this on my 98 cobra, would dual walbro external pumps be enough with 80lbs injectors? And is that all I would have to do? I can just use the same regulator and filter or do they have to be special.

Well yeah, considering 255 pumps are supported. 255 are similar to the Ford GT's.

Need some more info I think...1. What is your current DC with your current set-up is the question and is this 93?

What filter?, what PR?, How old are they? I would replace everything to new/newer. What you looking to make/more to do with your car?

Considering you just want to convert over to E85 from 93 and do the typical "increase boost 3 psi and timing by 6" to take advantage of E85 the whole reason why you want to convert right?.......I see you have 1.5L KB with 42#er's, next step would be 55's or 60's. I think you would be fine with external, equivalent to GT Supercar pumps -8 off the pumps to the stock rail..to 60's with your curret set up. RC makes a 65 as well. You could "over-injector" it. For comfort you may have to do some math....but that is bench racing.

 

[plan b]

Well yeah, considering the 255 pumps are supported. 255 are similar to the Ford GT's.

Need some more info I think...What filter?, what PR?, How old are they? I would replace everything to new/newer. What power are you looking to make? What is your set up?

Mike, I don't think you would enjoy filling up you're car everytime you drove it. You would need a barrel in the garage just for backup.

 

[utfan98]

Mike, I don't think you would enjoy filling up you're car everytime you drove it. You would need a barrel in the garage just for backup.

LOL, I do have one hell of a neighberhood, am stupid, ride a bike, bench race, am a good copier and paster, and don't have experience. Since you brought that up. Once agan, I hear you.

Go to the other site and read the few people that DRIVE not beat their cars reaction...one statement being, you will be living at the pump. I did not type that. I sit back and laugh.

I thought I was a dyno queen because I don't have 60 ft times, no 1/4 times. At least I went through 2 almost 3 sets of rear tires on my car within 8K miles (bought car unmodded from Mr. Daisy with 3800), roasting them on rare occasion. Majority (not all) of E85 peeps = major dyno queens. Get their HP number, post-up only that number and graft proving that number, claiming they are tooners because they have a lap top and bought software that comes with an instruction booklet.


People driving on E85 the majority of the time, esp 100% of the time....have to drive like Mrs. Daisy or not at all for obivous reasons that some of us see and which I will no longer type out or explain.


If you have a sticky about polishing your SS exhaust and talking about over 700HP on stock pistons, drive not sleep in your 04 Cobra you = MAJOR BRAGING DYNO QUEEN.. Give it time like I said, 3-5K with REGUARLY USE of E85 and DRIVING your COBRA . The fire will be put out, avitars will be changed to the chrome shining on rims, posts and questions will be authored and asked by the noobs, stupid or major dyno queens.

An aside...after I have spent over 5K in sound supporting mods (not interior chrome bullshit) to get to 500, I was unhappy with the "feel". Spent another 5K went to 600 HP. Then started to get "the feel of the wheel" I wanted. Now having 10K in performance mods and not taking SAFE advantage of my set up, I started stepping up a little more. Did pump upgrade the right way ($1500) (so 11,500 now). Got to around our safe limit (22-23 psi on Whipple and 650 to the wheel with 100% race gas 100% of the time). That was costly in many ways (not really money costs, time too), bullshit filling up at selected stations, and questioned the long term outcome from the leaded gas on my heads' exhaust side. One was 2 miles from my house that has Torco 110 @ 5.99/gallon (when check last summer durning a random DD fill up). Then went to unleaded race gas, that station was 12 miles from house. For me, that was even more bullshit. Keep in mind, the car is driven appox. 2500 miles per year. Started looking into E85...well that was less expensive (which was not the problem considering miles/year) more importantly if used, it started to get me in the UNSAFE safe power for obvious reasons. Talked to those that did the project, Mach's, Terminators, Chevy's, at the track. Now am dealing with again less selected (more than race gas) but selected station, esp if I wanted to drive out of my known area of E-85 stations, just like race gas. Not my cup of tea. Wanted to stay on straight 93, keep my boost....well cams and heads were last reasonable option. I did not want to upgrade the short block or spend 3,500 on one. I then spent 1K on cams (have no intrest on new heads or modding my heads for nearly same price of 3300) and 3800 on the install so....over 15K later I'm where I am. Now, I have a race gas tune only because of the the avalability of the programmer. Maybe one day I will fill up on 100% race gas if it calls for such. So now, I have safe HP and tune with bad ass lope, I can drive anywhere that I ever wanted to go in a Cobra....I leave the hand held programmer, laptop and graduated cylinder at home. Smoke and run WOT to bust the 06's ass or the tires when ever I want to. Fill up at any level don't have to wait to the fuel lines and tank to clear (some say 2 tanks) and still bust ass anywhere, anytime and ENJOY my car .

Do I have experience, bet more than 04Sleeper. Bet more than 90% on this site. Am I bragging nope.....can anyone do it?, yep. It is assumed we all have the same car on ths site, but some have *icks and egos the size of Texas.

"A retailer "Chooses". Well my retailer "Chooses" to mix the Ethanol here with 87 Octane and I have tested the Ethanol content to be 85% so I AM getting a TRUE 105 Octane"...what a selfish egotisical statement to put on a public forum in which variation does exists for the topic. Ask admin for your own forum. Did the owner of HPP ice pick your tires yet after writing that his business, HPP in Texas HAS NEVER seen a 650 HP stock block Cobra on their dyno... like it does not exist. LOL that is such a bold, publicly embarrasing statement which qustions his business practice in the publics eye (I 'm the public).



Done.........

 

[04sleeper]

I thought I was a dyno queen, at least I went through 2 almost 3 sets of rear tires on my car within 8K miles (bought car unmodded from Mr. Daisy with 3800), roasting them on rare occasion. Majority (not all) of E85 peeps = major dyno queens. Get their HP number, post-up only that number and graft proving that number, claiming they are tooners because they have a lap top and bought software that comes with an instruction booklet.

Wow. I am really sorry you don't know how to tune. But when you "Assume" that I do not, then you really take on the first 3 letters in the word "ASSume" . :read:

It's really sad to see what you again "Think" is the truth. If you really knew me then I am certain you would not feel that.

It's OK. Believe what you will and be ignorant to the truth. You seem to do very well at it.

People driving on E85 the majority of the time, esp 100% of the time....have to drive like Mrs. Daisy or not at all for obivous reasons that some of us see and will no longer type out.

Gee. A few less MPG's. Stop the press. :rollseyes

If you have a sticky about polishing your SS exhaust and talking about over 700HP on stock pistons, drive not sleep in your 04 Cobra you = MAJOR DYNO QUEEN.

Done.....

Don't be angry that my car is well taken care of, and makes more power than yours. Jealousy is very unbecoming. :nono: :nonono:

 

[04sleeper]

Safe HP and tune with bad ass lope and can drive anywhere that I ever wanted to go in a Cobra....I leave the hand held programmer, laptop and graduated cylinder at home. Smoke the tires when ever I want to. Fill up at any level don't have to wait to the fuel lines and tank to clear (some say 2 tanks) and still bust ass anywhere, anytime .

I wouldn't put cams in my car if hey were FREE. If I wanted my car to have a "Bad Ass Lope" I would go buy an old classic musclecar. Not a modern Mustang.

It is assmed we all have the same car on ths site, but some have bigger *icks.

Then obviously you must have the biggest one.

You come into a thread about E85 posting up how cams are "Better" and posting no personal experience about E85. You have not contributed to the thread in any way.

Just to "Proove" "Cams are better than E85"

Do I have experience, bet more than 04Sleeper. Bet more than 90% on this site.

Who wants to have the bigger "D"? LOL. Get over yourself already!!!

 

[blowngt]

I know guys personally, locally, that run E85. Not a one of them brag about dyno numbers. They do their bragging on the strip. I'm in the proces of switching over because of their expierences/results. It's obvious utfan98 either has no expierence, or friends that have had bad expierences with E85. I'm betting that the # of people that have made the switch are far more pleased with the results than not.

The arguement of gas milage is a BS one. If you purchased a mustang for gas milage, then you're just an idot. If you drive you're car a few thousand miles a year and complain about getting a few less MPG, than you're definately an idot.

$11.5k for 650 HP?? I'm glad I don't live in Michigan.........

 

[94venomV8]

OK so here is my next question, I have one gas station near by me and then a couple other that are a little drive to get to, Would it be worth while to run this on a turbo car that has a good intercooler. I mean is it going to be a good gain for the hassle I have to go through buying the parts and then only having one gas station that carries it? I saw the power gain over the fuel on a PD blower but will it be less on a car that has a Air to Air on it at around 15lbs of boost.

To answer the questions above from utfan, the regulator is a aeromotive unit, the filter is aermotive, they are all brand new, I havent even installed them yet. lol

I am looking to drive my car around mostly but it will see the track on occasion. I am wanting to determine if it is better to run this then run race fuel when needed.

 

[plan b]

The arguement of gas milage is a BS one. If you purchased a mustang for gas milage, then you're just an idot.

It's not bs to the people that don't want to go to the pump everytime they drive the car. It's not bs to people that don't have e85 at every gas station in town. Nobody purchases a mustang for fuel economy, you're the "idiot" that keeps bringing that up. The fact is that high horsepower cars will live at the pump while running this stuff moreso than regular fuel. That's a fact, getting that through you're thinking brick seems somewhat difficult.

 

[blowngt]

OK so here is my next question, I have one gas station near by me and then a couple other that are a little drive to get to, Would it be worth while to run this on a turbo car that has a good intercooler. I mean is it going to be a good gain for the hassle I have to go through buying the parts and then only having one gas station that carries it? I saw the power gain over the fuel on a PD blower but will it be less on a car that has a Air to Air on it at around 15lbs of boost.

To answer the questions above from utfan, the regulator is a aeromotive unit, the filter is aermotive, they are all brand new, I havent even installed them yet. lol

I am looking to drive my car around mostly but it will see the track on occasion. I am wanting to determine if it is better to run this then run race fuel when needed.

I'm in the same boat as you. I only have 2 gas stations that carry E85 that I know of, and neither are local. I have a turbo setup as well, and the gains that my friends made on their turbo setups on E85 are amazing.

I'm going to have a drum delivered to my house, that way I don't have to worry about it. For roughly the price of 1 full tank of race fuel you can get a 55 gal drum (At just over $2.00/gal) and it's no more or no less of a PITA to run than C16 (or whatever flavor race gas you run).

For those that have a stand alone system, you can purchase a flex fuel sensor that will allow you run E85 or 93 octane. It will adjust the tune according to the fuel mixture. That's the ultimate set up, but unfortunately I'm still running the stock computer. Maybe next year.

Lastly, if you try it and decide it's to much of a hassle, there is no downside to having a larger fuel system. It's not $$$ wasted, it just gives you more room to grow.

Do it, you won't be dissapointed........