Your Death Can Reveal Only an Afterlife

[wurd2]

Does anyone in this thread that is not saved really want the truth?

Would you mind if we start with some evidence that we are not saved?

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[wurd2]

WARNING: Christians may find the following deeply offensive. Refer to Psalms 14:1-2, Proverbs 23:9, and Matthew 7:6 for consolation and escape.

The Christian proposition, as I have come to understand it, is that I have two choices before me as a consequence of being born: either I kneel before Jesus Christ and submit myself to His mercy so that I can enter a kingdom of eternal praise and everlasting worship -OR- I spend an eternity—not a year, or a million years, or even a billion or trillion years, but an eternity!—in abject misery and inescapable torment.

This is a wicked preachment. It is a command to love on pain of eternal torture. It is the essence of the master-slave relationship, the essence of sadomasochism.

This is a profound thought, and certainly echoes my thought processes I have been through as I start to think for myself and through the many wash cycles I have been through attempting to wash away the human religious brainwashing that was forced upon my youthful self.

However, I am not surprised that none of the local supernatural believers have even remotely addressed this idea.

Because your logic is so backwards from the truth, I don't even know where to start.

You can start with a sentence or two demonstrating how my summary of the Christian proposition (inspired by Christopher Hitchens by the way) is a caricature. If indeed it is, this should be extremely easy to do.

You neglect everything that is right and focus only on what you perceive as negative, completely disregarding that you have every opportunity in a completely sensical matter to avoid any such judgement.

I don't care how comfortable your chains are! The proposition is an inherently wicked one.

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[DaleM]

My scientific analysis: When you die, you dead.

 

[7.62x51]

My scientific analysis: When you die, you dead.

I just wanted to quote you and reply to you on here, because nobody else has.

 

[upside]

Seek and you will find. My personal evidence means nothing to you; you have to make it personal for you.

Have you ever tried asking God to reveal Himself to you? ;-)

Agreed. give it a try and see what happens.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

You can start with a sentence or two demonstrating how my summary of the Christian proposition (inspired by Christopher Hitchens by the way) is a caricature. If indeed it is, this should be extremely easy to do.



I don't care how comfortable your chains are! The proposition is an inherently wicked one.

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Wicked according to whom? Your god, Christopher Hitchens?

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

I also see no one wanted to touch on the story I posted. There's not much I expect anyone to say but with all the rapid posting I would have expected something.

I posted it to show that there are things that go beyond your mind and what it is capable of. This is multiple people who witnessed the aftermath of an unexplainable spiritual attack on a single person. DMT is not capable of doing what occurred in that moment.

 

[wurd2]

Wicked according to whom?

The Christian proposition, as I have described it, is wicked according to the biological moral compass shared by healthy rational modern human beings. It is a compass we can know and understand, here and now, in the living.

Your god, Christopher Hitchens?

I invoke Christopher Hitchens' conclusions because their underlying reasoning is naturally contagious as all good reasoning is, not because they're compatible with a worldview that I desperately want to be true. While I do not worship him as one would a god, he has my very deepest respect. He was a remarkable human being, an orator of the mind.

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[suaveflooder]

The Christian proposition, as I have described it, is wicked according to the biological moral compass shared by healthy rational modern human beings. It is a compass we can know and understand, here and now, in the living.

Honest question.....how would you define this? I'm taking a humanities class so this subject has been discussed a lot.....already. Just interested to hear what you have to say. What is a "healthy, rational modern human being"?

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

The Christian proposition, as I have described it, is wicked according to the biological moral compass shared by healthy rational modern human beings. It is a compass we can know and understand, here and now, in the living.



I invoke Christopher Hitchens' conclusions because their underlying reasoning is naturally contagious as all good reasoning is, not because they're compatible with a worldview that I desperately want to be true. While I do not worship him as one would a god, he has my very deepest respect. He was a remarkable human being, an orator of the mind.

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The problem is, what you see to be as wicked according to an undefined but understood set of moral laws could be viewed simply as justice to others because they understand the circumstances in which one would pay for his denial of God's grace differently than you do. So who is the ultimate authority? Are you a secular humanist?

 

[wurd2]

Go ahead and tell this to the Marine at my command who was hospitalized for physical wounds that were inflicted on him by a spirit...

He remembers everything in detail until the point he saw the black figure run out of the darkneas of his room and attack him. From there he blacked out but the people living next to him and people outside heard his screams and rushed to get into his room. He was alone in his room and had just gotten off the phone with his gf when a few seconds later all the lights in his room shut off. He turned his lamp back on and then started hearing the sound of wallpaper being continuously torn off the walls but nothing was physically happening. The lights turned off again and that's when the spirit appeared and attacked him.

When they found him he was covered in blood and when they found the source of it he had perfect vertical cuts all down his back like it was done with a razor blade or knife. One of my friends who was his squad leader responded to it and said there was no way he could have done it on his own, that where the cuts were located and how perfect they were no person could physically do that to themself. Another friend of mine who is a combat veteran Sgt said it was one of the most disturbing and unexplainable things he's ever seen. With there being only one door and window into the barracks room it would have been impossible for there to be an intruder as the neighbours were beating on his door and trying to get in while he was screaming and being attacked.

The most extraordinary aspect of this story is the "perfect" vertical razor cuts along the attacked marine's back. If I believed that I was attacked by a supernatural entity, and my body exhibited physical evidence of the event, I would have the damage extensively photographed. Wouldn't you?

And yet, do we have any pictures of the very evidence of the spirit's attack?

:shrug:

Here is my rationale for this story, as you have described it: one or more marine's had a beef with the victim and they coordinated an attack on him for it. Given that we are talking about U.S. marine's here, I don't think it is farfetched to assume the attacker(s) infiltrated and exited through the one window in the room without raising alarm. I also think it is logical to assume that the attacker(s) would use a basic weapon such as a knife or razor that is small, easy to carry, quiet in execution, and readily available (one is left to wonder why a supernatural entity would attack by natural means). Having said this, I would conclude that the supernatural story the victim wove around the event is a cover-up so as to safeguard against future retaliation by protecting the identity of his attacker(s). The tearing of wallpaper sounds heard by the victim, which I find curiously out of place, may have been invoked to mask the act of infiltration and offer ready explanation to any neighbors within ear range of the inevitable scuffling along the walls. After all, if such unexplainable stories are common as you have suggested, most presumably would eagerly buy into it, as apparently you have.

This is multiple people who witnessed the aftermath of an unexplainable spiritual attack on a single person.

Why refer to your story as unexplainable when you apparently have it figured out?

DMT is not capable of doing what occurred in that moment.

I would agree. One or more very angry marines with a knife are capable though.

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[wurd2]

What is a "healthy, rational modern human being"?

By healthy, I mean someone free of mental ailments.

By rational, I mean someone who prefers conclusions derived from logic and observation over conclusions spread by authority.

By modern, I am excluding our immediate ancestors to refer to the set of, roughly, the last 150,000 to 200,000 years of human mammals.

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[wurd2]

The problem is, what you see to be as wicked according to an undefined but understood set of moral laws could be viewed simply as justice to others because they understand the circumstances in which one would pay for his denial of God's grace differently than you do.

This is a disingenuous tactic too commonly executed in a discussion that includes God. If we were talking about the loving and caring side of Him and perhaps the events that result here on earth from those circumstances, then the details are openly discussed and assessed without issue. Swing the pendulum to the ugly end of the spectrum, and suddenly our ability to analyze the resulting consequences are immediately discounted due to our sudden inability to grasp His standards.

Our biological moral compass is our most tangible reference for morality. Excluding abnormal cases, every one of us makes decisions based on this compass whether we believe it to be there or not. If you want to appeal to our understanding of love to advocate embracing the Lord, then you are not free to dismiss our understanding of evil as it is applied to Him.

So who is the ultimate authority?

I am no one to say but I think humanity is best served by deferring to our biological moral compass and our ability to debate and reason to determine what is and isn't moral.

Are you a secular humanist?

I do not know. Do I have a choice?

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[CBrowning84]

The Christian proposition, as I have described it, is wicked according to the biological moral compass shared by healthy rational modern human beings. It is a compass we can know and understand, here and now, in the living.

I am no one to say but I think humanity is best served by deferring to our biological moral compass and our ability to debate and reason to determine what is and isn't moral.

Wurd2, these 2 quotes, among others I have seen you post, remind me of someone I've read before, and I've thought it before, and I thought it again just now so I figured I'd say something.

Have you ever read C.S. Lewis? By his writing style I can tell that you both are very analytical, logical people and I really think that you would both enjoy and get an immense amount from some of his readings, specifically "Mere Christianity". He is brilliant and absolutely logical. He explains things from a seemingly unbiased viewpoint (by the way he logically dictates points coming from someone "on the outside," as if they were taking a giant step back and looking at the whole picture sort of thing).

I would really urge you to pick it up... in fact I have a copy that I'm not using, so if you're interested I would be more than happy to send it to you, free of charge. Just PM me if you're interested. :beer:

 

[suaveflooder]

Wurd2, these 2 quotes, among others I have seen you post, remind me of someone I've read before, and I've thought it before, and I thought it again just now so I figured I'd say something.

Have you ever read C.S. Lewis? By his writing style I can tell that you both are very analytical, logical people and I really think that you would both enjoy and get an immense amount from some of his readings, specifically "Mere Christianity". He is brilliant and absolutely logical. He explains things from a seemingly unbiased viewpoint (by the way he logically dictates points coming from someone "on the outside," as if they were taking a giant step back and looking at the whole picture sort of thing).

I would really urge you to pick it up... in fact I have a copy that I'm not using, so if you're interested I would be more than happy to send it to you, free of charge. Just PM me if you're interested. :beer:

I am reading "Mere Christianity" as we speak. GREAT BOOK! I highly recommend it to anyone

 

[wurd2]

A very Christian friend of mine gave me a copy of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity many years ago but I have only read book one—RIGHT AND WRONG AS A CLUE TO THE MEANING OF THE UNIVERSE—which comprises the first 32 pages. Lewis carefully lays the groundwork for what he refers to as the Moral Law, but he runs right over its biological foundation twice, first by offhandedly asserting that animals do not share this law and second by limiting the extent of biology's influence to herd instincts, where they are no more than keys on a piano and the Moral Law, having to be something else in nature, is the tune that one ought to play with those keys.

I haven't read far enough, but I have to assume that Lewis will at one point attribute the Moral Law to a supernatural entity, and then somehow reason that the supernatural entity is in fact Yahweh, the god of the bible.

The biological case for morality, at least today, is extensive in terms of observational data. I don't know that Lewis had the luxury of analyzing this data before his death in 1963. I have a lot of respect for him and his writing style, which is simple, short, concise, and not overly wordy. But I do think he is mistaken in attributing the Moral Law to something other than our biological evolution.

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[DaleM]

The most extraordinary aspect of this story is the "perfect" vertical razor cuts along the attacked marine's back. If I believed that I was attacked by a supernatural entity, and my body exhibited physical evidence of the event, I would have the damage extensively photographed. Wouldn't you?

And yet, do we have any pictures of the very evidence of the spirit's attack?

:shrug:

Here is my rationale for this story, as you have described it: one or more marine's had a beef with the victim and they coordinated an attack on him for it. Given that we are talking about U.S. marine's here, I don't think it is farfetched to assume the attacker(s) infiltrated and exited through the one window in the room without raising alarm. I also think it is logical to assume that the attacker(s) would use a basic weapon such as a knife or razor that is small, easy to carry, quiet in execution, and readily available (one is left to wonder why a supernatural entity would attack by natural means). Having said this, I would conclude that the supernatural story the victim wove around the event is a cover-up so as to safeguard against future retaliation by protecting the identity of his attacker(s). The tearing of wallpaper sounds heard by the victim, which I find curiously out of place, may have been invoked to mask the act of infiltration and offer ready explanation to any neighbors within ear range of the inevitable scuffling along the walls. After all, if such unexplainable stories are common as you have suggested, most presumably would eagerly buy into it, as apparently you have.



Why refer to your story as unexplainable when you apparently have it figured out?



I would agree. One or more very angry marines with a knife are capable though.

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Or self inflicted by an attention whore with a bit of mental instability?

 

[wurd2]

Or self inflicted by an attention whore with a bit of mental instability?

:lol:

Perhaps I have seen too many movies. I wanted to give a rationale that at least acknowledges svtfocus2cobra's most prized "fact" of the story, which I have to think is that the victim could not have produced the razor cuts himself.

Now that you have mentioned it DaleM, I would definitely nominate your explanation above all others. I am very convinced that the victim's supernatural story is the result of his knowing that it will be readily and eagerly absorbed by religious ears.

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[7.62x51]

Wurd2, these 2 quotes, among others I have seen you post, remind me of someone I've read before, and I've thought it before, and I thought it again just now so I figured I'd say something.

Have you ever read C.S. Lewis? By his writing style I can tell that you both are very analytical, logical people and I really think that you would both enjoy and get an immense amount from some of his readings, specifically "Mere Christianity". He is brilliant and absolutely logical. He explains things from a seemingly unbiased viewpoint (by the way he logically dictates points coming from someone "on the outside," as if they were taking a giant step back and looking at the whole picture sort of thing).

I would really urge you to pick it up... in fact I have a copy that I'm not using, so if you're interested I would be more than happy to send it to you, free of charge. Just PM me if you're interested. :beer:

It should be noted that C.S. Lewis was a devout atheist before coming to know Christ.

Another book I would strongly recommend is the "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Mr. Strobel was also a strong atheist before having his eyes opened.

"The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman."

 

[7.62x51]

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