When are upgraded Oil pump and timing gears highly recommended?

[Streetpwr281]

I'm having a 2.9 Whipple installed on my pump gas daily driver 13' GT500 in a couple of weeks. Also planning ID1050 injectors, JLT CAI, 72mm L&M Dual TB, 170 thermostat, Stainless Works 1 7/8" LTs/H, and custom Dyno tune. Goal is a safe 725rwhp+ on mild boost ~ 18psi max.

Question: When are upgraded oil pump and timing gears generally required on the 13'/14's GT500's? Certain power level, extended rpms, or just anytime adding aftermarket SCr?


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[Streetpwr281]

How many of you guys have upgraded these components on your GT500 w aftermarket (i.e.: larger/> 700rwhp) blowers?


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[fishpick]

Since this is driven by a lot of opinion and fear - here's my free of charge, all the goodness of an internet forum, take on it...
OPG's are known to be a potential weak spot in these engines.
The data strongly suggests its a combination of RPM's and some sort of sudden "strain" that causes them to let go... the strain could be a belt tensioner bottoming out, hitting the rev limiter something "sudden" like that. The general belief is that it's the combination of that stressor and the harmonics of the crank that "tap" the stock gears together and disaster strikes.
Here's why I'm doing the OPG's in a few weeks when my Whipple goes on my 2012 GT...
All things considered I have an "expensive" car... I'm putting a $7-$10K blower on top of it that pulls on the crank nose via the drive belt.
I pay more a year in auto insurance than the cost of a set of quality billet OPG's and a crank sprocket for under $500.
When you are installing the Whipple you have about 40-50% of the teardown done - it just becomes a matter of the valve covers, timing cover and chains... not that much more to get to the OPG's.
Maybe I'm conservative - but since I'm already gonna be in there - mostly - and they are CHEAP compared to so many other parts in the car... I'd rather, personally, do them and NEVER think about them again as opposed to always wondering "is this Corvette who's lunch I'm about to take gonna be the last lunch this car takes"?

 

[Beercules]

To remove the oil pump you'll either need to pull the oil pan or swear at one of the pick-up bolts many many times as you once again drop it in the oil pan and need to get the extension magnet to fish it out. It's just VERT tight in there, ended up using a magnet and angle pick to get it in place and TRY to start it (took a day to get it started) then an open end wrench to turn it a little at a time.

Do a k member at the same time so you can get the pan off and make it easy on yourself.

Also, do a billet crank sprocket at the same time since you're there.

Also, look into this...im thinking of puking my front off again to do this and the accufab pivot pins.
http://www.modularfords.com/threads...tensioner-mod#/topics/214602?page=1&_k=y6oi06

 

[Beercules]

You can probably use this to lift engine and lower the kmember at the same time to get a little room to lower the oil pan.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Engine-Support-Beam-2005-2014-Mustang-P1505.aspx

 

[Streetpwr281]

I appreciate your thorough response and perspective. There is a strong case for the upgrade upon Whipple install it's just the compounding cost of everything that gets me. That said, a $10k+ longblock would hurt worse!

Is there any performance upgrades that can be involved in the OPG/TG upgrade process? Advance or Retard stock cams maybe? Mine is a daily driver so not really thinking aftermarket cams would be wise.


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[fishpick]

@Streetpwr281 certainly you are a lot "closer" to the cams - since the valve covers are off... doing something there would be "less work" since it's open.
Some folks I guess change the chain tensioners, etc... MMR would love to sell you some stuff for that...
To the best of my knowledge MOST folks that do the OPG/sprocket (myself included in a few weeks) just stick with the OPG and sprocket at this point...

 

[Streetpwr281]

It's a snowball and I'm just too good at rolling it til it's a mountain LOL. I'm the king of costing myself money by saying "ok while we are in there..."

Replacing the OPG and Crank Sprocket just doesn't sound very sexy for all that coin but I guess insurance is never sexy until you need it.

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[Beercules]

Passenger side secondary tensioner is supposed to help a little.

Mostly everything behind the cover is for durability.

 

[JimIII@jdm]

If you drive the car on the street and don't plan on running sticky tires like Mickey Thompons or Nittos you'll be okay at that power level. But it's at your own risk. Drive line chatter tends to shatter the gears on cars with even less power. I broke my oil pump gears in my 06 Mustang Saleen at 630 RWHP. Same gears and pump in the 07-12 GT500's and basically the 13-14's as well.

How it happened. Well I drove it to the track on 15" drag radials, track conditions weren't too great. I spun the tires hard on launch, lifted and stabbed back into it as it hooked and gained traction. I believe it was that shock to the drive line from letting out and then back into the throttle that shattered the gears. Ran the car down the track and locked up the motor by the time I made it to the pits and realized my oil pressure light was on.

On the street with street tires your just going to spin the tires and that is going to ease the brunt of the stress on the gears. But if you put enough power through them they will shatter on their own. Most of our customers who call to order our Super Stock cams or build an engine for I recommend doing the TSS (Triangle Speed)oil pump gears and TSS crank gears. They are very reliable and we've never had an issue. Some of the cheaper brands I've found problems with.

http://www.teamjdm.com/4-6l-and-5-4l-modular-engine-tss-billet-oil-pump-gears-upgrade/

We sell an O Ringed 13-14 GT500 housing pre assembled with TSS billet gears for $549. When you go to install the new billet gears in your old housing it is not un common to find scoring or wear patterns so a new housing is a great idea. We also O ring the housing so it seals better to the block for more oil pressure. And we also blue print and assemble the oil pump to spec on a custom jig that allows us to properly torque the housing cover bolts so to not stress the case. It's a very good insurance policy!

 

[Streetpwr281]

I appreciate the response Jim. You began great saying I'd be ok if I drive solely on the street w/o sticky tires and then somewhere around "I broke my oil pump gears" you turned the tables and lead me down a road that is at least $150 more than proposed cause now I've got to get the new o-ringed oil pump too!!

Does the IRS allow for 401k withdrawals for the hardship of OPGs replacement?


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[Streetpwr281]

If you drive the car on the street and don't plan on running sticky tires like Mickey Thompons or Nittos you'll be okay at that power level. But it's at your own risk. Drive line chatter tends to shatter the gears on cars with even less power. I broke my oil pump gears in my 06 Mustang Saleen at 630 RWHP. Same gears and pump in the 07-12 GT500's and basically the 13-14's as well.

How it happened. Well I drove it to the track on 15" drag radials, track conditions weren't too great. I spun the tires hard on launch, lifted and stabbed back into it as it hooked and gained traction. I believe it was that shock to the drive line from letting out and then back into the throttle that shattered the gears. Ran the car down the track and locked up the motor by the time I made it to the pits and realized my oil pressure light was on.

On the street with street tires your just going to spin the tires and that is going to ease the brunt of the stress on the gears. But if you put enough power through them they will shatter on their own. Most of our customers who call to order our Super Stock cams or build an engine for I recommend doing the TSS (Triangle Speed)oil pump gears and TSS crank gears. They are very reliable and we've never had an issue. Some of the cheaper brands I've found problems with.

http://www.teamjdm.com/4-6l-and-5-4l-modular-engine-tss-billet-oil-pump-gears-upgrade/

We sell an O Ringed 13-14 GT500 housing pre assembled with TSS billet gears for $549. When you go to install the new billet gears in your old housing it is not un common to find scoring or wear patterns so a new housing is a great idea. We also O ring the housing so it seals better to the block for more oil pressure. And we also blue print and assemble the oil pump to spec on a custom jig that allows us to properly torque the housing cover bolts so to not stress the case. It's a very good insurance policy!

Jim truth be told I may run 20" Nitto 555R's just for roll racing so I get some sort of traction to avoid spinning out of control on the street. Pushing my luck?


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[fishpick]

Pushing my luck?

Point here is "nobody really knows"... there's tons of really smart ideas about why they let go - but nobody KNOWS it's always X + Y...

Get the OPG's and sprocket - then don't think about it again.

 

[JimIII@jdm]

Jim truth be told I may run 20" Nitto 555R's just for roll racing so I get some sort of traction to avoid spinning out of control on the street. Pushing my luck?

If you have to "pedal it" to get traction it's risky. I would say yes..

 

[paluka21]

Maybe it's just because I'm in a bad mood today, but to vent a little regarding the oil pump gears that tend to be another weak link in these cars; it's asinine to think Ford would not have understood this vulnerability in these motors when designing and testing their top dog 662hp car that redlines at 7,000rpm.
Perhaps Fords mentality was that this motor has met its horsepower/torque threshold at the stock power level from a reliability standpoint, and didn't leave much margin for error for adding additional power to the motor? And I'm speaking strictly from either a stock or mildly modification standpoint.
Unless you're counting beans it would make sense from a quality standpoint that a limited production car such as the 2013/14 GT500 should have quality internal parts installed that can withstand variation in horsepower levels within reason, and not have the same internal parts as a standard 400hp mustang GT.

 

[Streetpwr281]

Maybe it's just because I'm in a bad mood today, but to vent a little regarding the oil pump gears that tend to be another weak link in these cars; it's asinine to think Ford would not have understood this vulnerability in these motors when designing and testing their top dog 662hp car that redlines at 7,000rpm.
Perhaps Fords mentality was that this motor has met its horsepower/torque threshold at the stock power level from a reliability standpoint, and didn't leave much margin for error for adding additional power to the motor? And I'm speaking strictly from either a stock or mildly modification standpoint.
Unless you're counting beans it would make sense from a quality standpoint that a limited production car such as the 2013/14 GT500 should have quality internal parts installed that can withstand variation in horsepower levels within reason, and not have the same internal parts as a standard 400hp mustang GT.

I agree 100%. And we are not talking a lot of $ for the difference in parts cost for better OPGs. The labor is the killer after the fact.


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[Catmonkey]

It's a snowball and I'm just too good at rolling it til it's a mountain LOL. I'm the king of costing myself money by saying "ok while we are in there...

You're in good company.

 

[rdrkt]

Would a WOT box negatively effect the longevity of these parts?

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[Beercules]

The OEM parts, yes, they're brittle. Upgraded parts will help, including the primary guide pins and tensioner mods. But once I heard that even the big gt supercar chain can snap, I'm not sure I want to use mine.

Anyone know if we can get German IWIS chains for our cars?