What is up with Bama turning off knock sensors?!

[5.0jake]

I have heard the rumors about it and there have been a few threads mentioning it but I've now seen it with my own eyes after datalogging my brothers V6 mustang! his ks pid output displayed a flatline of zero all the way across and they were commanding crazy timing on top of it...
WTF is going on over there?

To be clear, my current 14' 5.0 has never run any Bama tunes. This is about my brother stang.
I am not vendor bashing just stating what I saw.

 

[hitmix300]

Show the datalog and give more information

 

[el jefe 302]

^ This.


Post the datalog

 

[5.0jake]

I'll see if I can get it from my brother. It was seen during a dyno tune at Rev Auto.

 

[mebcop]

I have heard the rumors about it and there have been a few threads mentioning it but I've now seen it with my own eyes after datalogging my brothers V6 mustang! his ks pid output displayed a flatline of zero all the way across and they were commanding crazy timing on top of it...
WTF is going on over there?

To be clear, my current 14' 5.0 has never run any Bama tunes. This is about my brother stang.
I am not vendor bashing just stating what I saw.

You don't think they just don't allow the KS to add timing and he just didn't see any knock during the pull???

 

[5.0jake]

No.
Rev auto said they were turned off. They also said crazy timing was being commanded and it was knocking.

 

[mebcop]

No.
Rev auto said they were turned off. They also said crazy timing was being commanded and it was knocking.

YIKES! How did Rev auto know it was knocking? Could you hear it? Im not questioning if they're right or not, just asking. Scary!

 

[5.0jake]

YIKES! How did Rev auto know it was knocking? Could you hear it? Im not questioning if they're right or not, just asking. Scary!

Not sure if it was audible. I'll have to ask my brother.
The statement was definitely made that the ks's were turned off and that the motor was definitely pinging.

 

[Aaron@JPCRacing]

I've seen it before where cars will come in and have the knock sensors turned off and an un real amount of timing in them.

 

[Angry50]

think someone from BAMA would come in and give us some input?

 

[apex32]

op:

 

[john11gt]

what would be considered a crazy amount of timing on the datalog?

 

[5.0jake]

what would be considered a crazy amount of timing on the datalog?

I'm no expert but I'd imagine above 29 at WOT being pretty crazy

 

[Tuffnuts23]

think someone from BAMA would come in and give us some input?

I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't think I've ever seen anyone from BAMA in any tune related thread.

 

[Angry50]

now I have to make time to data log my car and see.

 

[rfopt]

In a thread started by a 14 GT owner on another mustang board, Dan at American Muscle says that on the BAMA race tune the knock sensors are set to pull timing from individual cylinders instead of globally and when set this way the knock sensors reading could say 0 even if timing is being pulled. The V6 tunes may be the same way. On my 14 GT the logs of my BAMA performance tune purchased mid-late June this year show active knock sensors. However, I haven't tried WOT on the race tune and logged.

 

[Tuffnuts23]

In a thread started by a 14 GT owner on another mustang board, Dan at American Muscle says that on the BAMA race tune the knock sensors are set to pull timing from individual cylinders instead of globally and when set this way the knock sensors reading could say 0 even if timing is being pulled. The V6 tunes may be the same way. On my 14 GT the logs of my BAMA performance tune purchased mid-late June this year show active knock sensors. However, I haven't tried WOT on the race tune and logged.

I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound like a good idea. How is a tuner supposed have an accurate picture of what is going on if timing is being pulled on individual cylinders with knock sensors reading reading zero? I'm sure somebody that knows what they are talking about can clear this up for me, but it just sounds like that is adding variables that don't need to be there

 

[AMAlexLazarus]

I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't think I've ever seen anyone from BAMA in any tune related thread.

I'm working with Paul from Bama right now to answer all of your questions and clear this up. Hope this helps!

I have heard the rumors about it and there have been a few threads mentioning it but I've now seen it with my own eyes after datalogging my brothers V6 mustang! his ks pid output displayed a flatline of zero all the way across and they were commanding crazy timing on top of it...
WTF is going on over there?

To be clear, my current 14' 5.0 has never run any Bama tunes. This is about my brother stang.
I am not vendor bashing just stating what I saw.

Bama DOES NOT disable the knock sensors.
Bama doesn't turn them off on V6's (like your brother's) or GT's either. Screen shots:



Why are you seeing zero? Easy... you're not datalogging knock sensors per individual cylinders. This is why it says zero. You're datalogging "global knock".

The way that the spark algorithm works is that when it senses knock, it will either pull timing from every cylinder (global knock) or just the cylinder that's knocking (individual knock). Depending on the Bama tune that you were running, Bama may use the logic where it will only pull timing from the cylinder that's knocking (individual) which will then result in a value of '0' within a datalog since you're just pulling the knock sensor PID (global). As well, to diagnose if you're actually knocking using the global parameter that you're datalogging with, Bama can send you out a modified tune that will allow it to pull from all cylinders and then you can take a look and it should be visible to you no matter what cylinder it's knocking in. However, it sounds like you're far from knocking... here's why:

As far as the timing numbers, on 93 octane Bama's V6 tunes will command approximately 25 degrees timing at wide-open-throttle in upper RPM's. From the factory, a stock V6 car CAN see anywhere from 28-31 degrees depending on variables (perfect conditions, temperatures, no knock, fuel quality, etc. etc.) at the highest RPM point depending on load. So if they're seeing 25, 26, 27 degrees... they're really happy with that on their aftermarket tune.

Factory timing (for proof - again it's based on temperatures, knock, conditions, etc.) screen shot:



If you're seeing higher than Bama's 24-27 degrees of timing, it is because the car is seeing no knock and adding timing to the calibration itself. This is further proof that they aren't manipulating the factory knock sensor calibration.

You don't think they just don't allow the KS to add timing and he just didn't see any knock during the pull???

This!

 

[AMAlexLazarus]

I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound like a good idea. How is a tuner supposed have an accurate picture of what is going on if timing is being pulled on individual cylinders with knock sensors reading reading zero? I'm sure somebody that knows what they are talking about can clear this up for me, but it just sounds like that is adding variables that don't need to be there

This has been common practice since 2005 when the switch was introduced into Ford's PCM's. Nobody noticed on 05-10 3V Mustangs because all it reported was knock sensor voltage, not an actual value. There's alot of things about tuning that unfortunately people don't understand but are spreading around because of availability of easy access to datalogging, etc. In this case, pulling individually allows you to make more power and still maintain safe, reliable tunes because you command comfortable numbers and still let the knock sensors do their thing just like Ford intended in either set of logic.

Our latest Street and Performance tunes are set up to pull timing globally. Our 91 and 93 Race tune is set up to pull timing individually. We advertise our Race tune as for track use only. Even major OEM's such as Ford and General Motors modify or even remove completely (ie. Super Cobra Jet) the knock sensors for their track calibrations. We're leaving the functionality completely stock and just letting them pull from a problematic area and in turn make more power, safely.

People forget that even the factory tune can and often does audibly knock. Not saying that it's a good thing or that it should occur, but from the factory these things are pulling timing. This isn't necessarily the nature of an "overly aggressive tune", but the logic used to control spark within these cars. Unfortunately, people are hopping on a "Bama is aggressive" band-wagon when in reality they've tested and their customers have tested their tunes against multiple competitors with better results, identical results and close results. This is why you can find threads where "Bama is too conservative", because they missed a competitor by 5 horsepower. In the same sub-forum you'll find that Bama is crazy and commanding way too much timing (incorrectly) like this.

Bama's experience allows them to build safe and reliable tunes. They've got more tuned Mustangs under their belt than any other company. Members of their team have worked with OEM's, Ford Racing and top names in the industry. Trust that they are working hard EVERY DAY to continue to build quality tunes to make their customers happy and make safe horsepower. I promise you they're accomplishing it. If you're running an older version of the Bama tunes, make sure to update to the latest so that you're getting our completely new and revamped files that are proving themselves all around.

 

[5.0jake]

I guess you told me! Thank you for the comprehensive explanation, Ive never heard of pulling timing per cylinder, very interesting. I wonder why the other big name tuners don't do this?
When a company like Rev Auto tells you the knock sensors are turned off along with dangerous amounts of timing it is a bit alarming and concerning! They did also say it was knocking. I will try get more details on that.
Maybe they are uninformed about safely being able to command higher timing in the V6, I don't know.

Regardless, they were able to gain another 8 horse and 10 torque at the wheels than the Bama tune he was running with less timing and no knock activity.