Update on my tune problems

[farmboy90]

I really hope this doesn't start up a thread war about who has the best tuner, etc. I am only posting my story in case others find themselves in the same spot.

I bought a 13-6 Kit from Van a couple of weeks back. This of course comes with a Lund tune. I asked for two tunes:
91 octane + 65mm TB + JLT CF CAI
91 octane + 65mm TB + JLT CF CAI plus Torco

Got my stuff from Van in a couple of days. Lund emailed his tunes in a couple of days as well. All was looking good.

I was out of town when everything arrived, so I didn't get to install the parts for a few days. Finally was able to get them installed the next weekend.

I flashed the 91 + Torco tune first. Started the car up and it idled just fine. Took it out for a drive. Here were my tests:

1) From a rolling 50mph or so, give it good throttle in 2nd gear. Definitely enough throttle to send it into boost. Car seemed to run just fine.
2) From a rolling 50mph or so, give it good throttle in 4TH gear. Give it enough throttle to put it into boost. As soon as the car crossed from vacuum to boost, it started knocking and detonating.

So it will detonate under heavy load like doing a pull from 50 in 4th, but not while in 2nd.

I called Van, (who has been super supportive by the way), and he told me to check for leaks, pull the filter all the way to the end of the intake tube, etc. He also wanted me to add another can of torco just to be sure. Did all those things but still had the same problem.

I then flashed to the 91 octane tune. Same problem. At that point Van suggested I open a ticket with Lund. So I did. And Lund responded saying it was bad gas, etc. He also said that I need to change my plugs to NGK TR6 plugs and gap them at 30. So I ran to the store, got the plugs, and did that. Same problem. Lund said there is a TSB from Ford about the plugs and that I should have changed them. (Turns out I asked my ford service guy to pull up all the TSBs. There is no TSB for spark plugs for our cars).

He gave me another tune which had all the spark parameters returned to stock. I tried this out and it seemed to fix the issue, but of course this is a pretty lame tune. He then gave me another tune, but this time added back a couple of degrees of timing. The same problems occurred. He blames the gas. So I moved on at that point since gas can't be the issue here. I run an ass load of torco with my 91 octane. And I have detonation whether I used his 91 octane tune or his 91 octane + torco tune.

Meanwhile, I got a pointer from a member on here to talk to Dennis Gomes and Jim LaRocca. I emailed them my setup and then next morning I was sent a tune. It worked on the first try. No detonation, pinging, etc. The only issue is that the car will stall at very high speeds (like 90mph +) if you coast in neutral. It has a hard time finding idle at those speeds due to the ram air turbulence and the JLT intake tube. Dennis was able to band-aid this in the tune and says the JLT tube is the problem.

He recommends I use the Whipple CAI though since he says the JLT is missing the bellmouth/velocity stack and that messes up the air flow. So my new JLT CF CAI is for sale here:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/engine-drivetrain-282/896271-jlt-cf-cai-2013-shelby.html

The thing is basically new, so let me know if you are interested. I guess my car is just too finicky for it.

Anyway, the bottom line here is that Van was great. Lund was even responsive albeit not very good about wanting to debug the issue. Dennis and Jim provided a tune that worked right out of the gate. I don't want to know why this is, and I don't want to start a war about this tuner versus another tuner. I am just a customer who wants his car to run safely and strongly.

I would recommend the 13-6 kit from Van to others, even though it comes with a Lund tune. Lund has these tunes running fine for lots of folks, and I don't doubt that. At the end of the day it didn't work for me so I moved to a new tuner and things are working fine.

I am selling my JLT and switching to the Whipple though just so that I don't have to band aid anything in my tune.

I am bummed that I am essentially out extra money for the wasted Lund tunes + the need to take a hit on the JLT CF tube, but live and learn I guess.

 

[Chris!]

There's gotta be some kind of tuning on certain ecu's that Lund is missing. As this is pretty isolated.

When I say isolated- I mean there are probably 20 people on this forum that actively post with Lund tunes and 3 of them have the same detonation issue.

It's something I think Lund needs to look Into.

Personally- I have had Lund tunes in 3 of my vehicle and they've all been great and would use him again!

I also second Van being the best- guy flat out knows customer service. None better.

 

[Devious_Snake]

I certainly appreciate your honesty....couple things that are bothersome:

Why did lund suggest a TSB when clearly we all know the issue about the spark plug gap was that it was misprinted in the manual, not that the gaps were off? no verifying of info I guess on his part...

His constant blaming of bad gas....thats someone who has gotten way too big and refuses to admit errors (IMO)

The JLT CAI...most never have issues, why not contact JLT on here and see if they can try to send you a different one, maybe the big air one? they have good customer service, give em a try before you waste money. Maybe your unit is defective? be sad to sell it to someone and they have similar issue after


Its stuff like this that makes me stay away from tuning for a while, especially canned tunes. I hope it works out for you brother :beer:

 

[farmboy90]

The JLT CAI...most never have issues, why not contact JLT on here and see if they can try to send you a different one, maybe the big air one? they have good customer service, give em a try before you waste money. Maybe your unit is defective? be sad to sell it to someone and they have similar issue after

Yeah, I have the big air one. It's the 127mm CF one. And the problem with the tube can be masked in the tune. I did not have this issue with the lund tune. So he's obviously compensated for it somehow. And in fact, in my new tune from Dennis I don't have the problem anymore either. He also compensated for it.

So I suspect that the CF tube itself actually does have a flaw, and most never notice it since the tunes they get mask the issue.

I wouldn't have known about it either since it didn't occur with the Lund tune. I only noticed when I switched to a tune where the issue wasn't being covered up.

So I could just keep it as is. The tune I have now works fine with it. I would just feel more comfortable knowing my tune wasn't masking something.

 

[Devious_Snake]

Yeah, I have the big air one. It's the 127mm CF one. And the problem with the tube can be masked in the tune. I did not have this issue with the lund tune. So he's obviously compensated for it somehow. And in fact, in my new tune from Dennis I don't have the problem anymore either. He also compensated for it.

So I suspect that the CF tube itself actually does have a flaw, and most never notice it since the tunes they get mask the issue.

I wouldn't have known about it either since it didn't occur with the Lund tune. I only noticed when I switched to a tune where the issue wasn't being covered up.

So I could just keep it as is. The tune I have now works fine with it. I would just feel more comfortable knowing my tune wasn't masking something.

I agree I would hate to see you lose money for something when it could be replaced. Im like you, I want piece of mind everything is alright

 

[shelbysvt]

1 thing I'll add. Lunk is confusing the spark plug thing. It's not a TSB. The owners manual for the first batch of cars just had the wrong paramaters for the spark plug written in. It was done correctly at the factory but written down incorrectly in the manual. Which is why we got new SVT manuals that has the correct number.

The lesson learned here is JLT intake is no good apparently for tuners lol. Though did your lund tune make the car stall out at above 90+? I'm no tune expert or knowledgable by any degree but I'd imagine if lund can make it so it doesn't stall out in neutral at 90+ those other guys should as well? But again not knowledgable at all on this topic.

 

[blackshelby]

QUOTE=shelbysvt;12466636]The lesson learned here is JLT intake is no good apparently for tuners lol. Though did your lund tune make the car stall out at above 90+? I'm no tune expert or knowledgable by any degree but I'd imagine if lund can make it so it doesn't stall out in neutral at 90+ those other guys should as well? But again not knowledgable at all on this topic. [/QUOTE]



It's a turbulence issue with the ram air attached when the ram air is removed no issues will show.(as stated above by the OP)
Yes there something that could be changed to the tube to correct but not sure if they will do it or not.(compare that tube to a stock MAF, A Whipple or Ford Racing MAF )

In the tune dashpots and ISC can be tweak to prevent the stalling from the turbulence in the MAF tube.

 

[farmboy90]

Yeah I forgot to mention that above. If I remove the ram air tube and cover the hole in the heat shield, the car runs perfect. And yes, this was masked in both tunes I received.

 

[Ninjak]

I did a mod on the JLT 127 tube to fit our stock airbox. I have tunes from Justin @ VMP. I was running a Tasca 123 MAF (basically a whipple MAF) at first, but I did not have a good coupler for it. While looking, I was able to get the JLT on the cheap, so I did it.

Now here is the thing. Using the filter that came with the JLT i experienced the car engine light coming on, stumbling, surging, basically running like crap. I knew it was not the tune, because I ran the 123 with ZERO issues. So I figured it had to be the filter. I read about moving it down, and I still had some of the issues, but not as bad. I then went and use porch screen and fitted it over the intake. Problem did stop, but I had then decided I wanted to go with a different filter. Besides that filter was to big for the airbox.

So I ended up using my Air-Raid Blue non Oil filter on the JLT (with the adapter mod) and I have not had another issue. I basically believe that the filters that JLT are using for the big air is the issue. The one I had did not have a screen in it. The airraid does not as well, but the end is not open like the JLT one. Also the Tasca filter is open, but I noticed it is design differently than the one from JLT.

So perhaps this is the cause of these bad tunes, and issues people seem to have when using these two products together.

 

[blackshelby]

I did a mod on the JLT 127 tube to fit our stock airbox. I have tunes from Justin @ VMP. I was running a Tasca 123 MAF (basically a whipple MAF) at first, but I did not have a good coupler for it. While looking, I was able to get the JLT on the cheap, so I did it.

Now here is the thing. Using the filter that came with the JLT i experienced the car engine light coming on, stumbling, surging, basically running like crap. I knew it was not the tune, because I ran the 123 with ZERO issues. So I figured it had to be the filter. I read about moving it down, and I still had some of the issues, but not as bad. I then went and use porch screen and fitted it over the intake. Problem did stop, but I had then decided I wanted to go with a different filter. Besides that filter was to big for the airbox.

So I ended up using my Air-Raid Blue non Oil filter on the JLT (with the adapter mod) and I have not had another issue. I basically believe that the filters that JLT are using for the big air is the issue. The one I had did not have a screen in it. The airraid does not as well, but the end is not open like the JLT one. Also the Tasca filter is open, but I noticed it is design differently than the one from JLT.

So perhaps this is the cause of these bad tunes, and issues people seem to have when using these two products together.

I agree to a point. There can be a few issues which can cause similar results.
Some can be the part.
Some can be the tuning method/practices used.(How a MAF transfer curve is obtained)
Some can be both.
Not pointing to any specific ones here just examples.


I can't say it any better ....there nothing more important than an accurate MAF and an accurate MAF transfer curve.
A MAF car /ECU depends on that reading to be accurate and be a real airflow number.(really how much air is passing by the sensor)
If the airflow reading is not correct/ wrong measurement being sent to the ECU or the wrong measurement represented in airflow in the tune(MAF transfer curve)... both can be a problem.

 

[farmboy90]

I did a mod on the JLT 127 tube to fit our stock airbox. I have tunes from Justin @ VMP. I was running a Tasca 123 MAF (basically a whipple MAF) at first, but I did not have a good coupler for it. While looking, I was able to get the JLT on the cheap, so I did it.

Now here is the thing. Using the filter that came with the JLT i experienced the car engine light coming on, stumbling, surging, basically running like crap. I knew it was not the tune, because I ran the 123 with ZERO issues. So I figured it had to be the filter. I read about moving it down, and I still had some of the issues, but not as bad. I then went and use porch screen and fitted it over the intake. Problem did stop, but I had then decided I wanted to go with a different filter. Besides that filter was to big for the airbox.

So I ended up using my Air-Raid Blue non Oil filter on the JLT (with the adapter mod) and I have not had another issue. I basically believe that the filters that JLT are using for the big air is the issue. The one I had did not have a screen in it. The airraid does not as well, but the end is not open like the JLT one. Also the Tasca filter is open, but I noticed it is design differently than the one from JLT.

So perhaps this is the cause of these bad tunes, and issues people seem to have when using these two products together.

Yeah my JLT filter does have the new embedded screen in it. And *all* my problems went away the moment I pulled the ram air tube out (and covered the hole). So the problems--for me anyway--stemmed from the ram air tube and the lack of a proper velocity stack.

I even reinstalled the ram air tube, and my problems immediately returned.

 

[Photonut]

Sorry to be daft, does anyone have a picture of what this ram air tube is? I am clueless, but interested in this thread greatly as I was considering similar mods, and may be changing my mind based on the issues with the parts/tune I keep hearing.

-Photonut

 

[shelbysvt]

Sorry to be daft, does anyone have a picture of what this ram air tube is? I am clueless, but interested in this thread greatly as I was considering similar mods, and may be changing my mind based on the issues with the parts/tune I keep hearing.

-Photonut

+1. What is this ram air tube? I'm under impression we have an intake tube, the shield, and the filter. And that JLT is different in that the stock filter has a metal mesh screen for airflow that the JLT does not have.

So what is this ram air tube? The only ram aim function I am aware of on shelbys is the hole on the side of the grill for air to get into the CAI and obviously the open grill

 

[shelbysvt]

I did a mod on the JLT 127 tube to fit our stock airbox. I have tunes from Justin @ VMP. I was running a Tasca 123 MAF (basically a whipple MAF) at first, but I did not have a good coupler for it. While looking, I was able to get the JLT on the cheap, so I did it.

Now here is the thing. Using the filter that came with the JLT i experienced the car engine light coming on, stumbling, surging, basically running like crap. I knew it was not the tune, because I ran the 123 with ZERO issues. So I figured it had to be the filter. I read about moving it down, and I still had some of the issues, but not as bad. I then went and use porch screen and fitted it over the intake. Problem did stop, but I had then decided I wanted to go with a different filter. Besides that filter was to big for the airbox.

So I ended up using my Air-Raid Blue non Oil filter on the JLT (with the adapter mod) and I have not had another issue. I basically believe that the filters that JLT are using for the big air is the issue. The one I had did not have a screen in it. The airraid does not as well, but the end is not open like the JLT one. Also the Tasca filter is open, but I noticed it is design differently than the one from JLT.

So perhaps this is the cause of these bad tunes, and issues people seem to have when using these two products together.

I think JLT needs to make an adapter for airaid filters to work. Or someone else because they probably don't want to admit a flaw in their product. There probably would be a lot of money for a person to make an adapter so people could have the blue airaid filter on a big air JLT intake.

 

[farmboy90]

Here is a picture of what I call the "ram air tube". You can see it feeding into the filter housing on the left side.

At sufficiently high speed, the air coming in through this tube confuses the PCM.

If I remove that tube and tape off the hole, everything works totally fine.

 

[Quick96Mystic]

One thing I notice after installing the JLT CF CAI + 65mm tb is I had a part throttle hesitation just driving around town with the STOCK tune. After getting a dyno tune I have no issues, at all.

No codes, no pinging, no sputtering, no hesitation and especially no shutting off.

I truly don't believe any of these issues are JLT related or 65mm tb related. Seems like it's in the tune to me.

Here is a picture of what I call the "ram air tube". You can see it feeding into the filter housing on the left side.

At sufficiently high speed, the air coming in through this tube confuses the PCM.

If I remove that tube and tape off the hole, everything works totally fine.

I've stretched her legs past 120, I don't get any issues at those speeds. How fast do you have to be going for this "confusion" to occur?

 

[farmboy90]

Quick96, try this test... Get on the freeway and spin it up to 100+ mph (the faster you are going, the better), then put the car in neutral and coast.

Does the tach slowly return to idle?
What RPM does it rest at?
Does it "hunt" around at all when it gets near idle?

 

[Quick96Mystic]

Quick96, try this test... Get on the freeway and spin it up to 100 mph, then put the car in neutral and coast.

Does the tach slowly return to idle?
What RPM does it rest at?
Does it "hunt" around at all when it gets near idle?

I'll give this a shot as soon as the weather permits, I'll actually mount my gopro for an unbiased perspective. I've definitely pressed the clutch in at 120ish before and I didn't get any funny reactions that caught my attention.

Also, being that I'm extremely picky about drivability a hunting idle would drive me insane so I would've noticed it happening, I'll leave it to the gopro to tell the honest truth.

 

[91svtbird]

Farmboy I’m glad you finally got a handle on things with your car/mods.
It sounds like there was actually two separate problems going on with your car. The first problem was that the initial tune was detonating, pinging when under a load. That issue obviously was a tune issue. (not the first time we’ve seen this)
Once a new tune from the second tuner was installed the detonation and pinging went away.

The second issue was uncovered after the new tune was installed. While at higher speeds (when the factory “ram air” effect was increased) the JLT meter experienced turbulence at the sensor location. It affected the air flow going past the sensor mainly because unlike the factory meter there was an absence of a ‘bell mouth” design in the tube. The bell mouth design is there for a very important reason and that is to “smooth out and direct the air flow” before it goes past the sensor.
Sure this affect can somewhat be “masked” by altering factory ISC and dashpot settings in the tune but the turbulence will still be there, more so the faster the vehicle goes.

The best remedy is like the one implemented on the stock Ford meter, the FRPP 123, and the Whipple 123. They are designed with a built bell mouth, much like a venturi on a carburetor that will smooth out and better direct the air flow past the sensor. BTW An inlet screen is also used to defuse and better even out the the air flow as well. Both of these are especially needed on the 2011-2014 GT500’s that have the “ram air” inlets .

 

[Snorman]

Its stuff like this that makes me stay away from tuning for a while, especially canned tunes. I hope it works out for you brother :beer:

Exactly, especially when you're talking about a 6-700 rwhp car. While I was considering one of the vendor "packages" that includes a canned Lund tune, I'm not anymore.
:nonono:
S.