Trouble Starting - Help

[Five_oh]

I recently picked up a 91 notch. I'm having trouble getting it to start at times. It's a simple setup....'99 Mountaineer block, GT40P Heads and B303 Cam...Nothing spectacular.

What happens is that the starter will attempt to turn the motor over, but it stops before the crank ever gets a full rotation. I let off and then bump it again and it spins over without an issue. This is when the motor is cold.

It's worse when the motor is at running temperature. I can sit there and bump it over and over and it won't turn the engine. It's almost like the starter isn't getting enough power. So, I hooked up a set of jumper cables to my truck and the starter spun the motor over like it was nothing. I figured the alternator wasn't charging the battery enough, maybe an underdrive pulley or something....I hooked up a volt meter and the alternator is putting out 14.9, so it's charging just fine. Checked the battery a few hours later after letting it sit and the battery is holding around 12.5.

I don't think it's needs a high torque starter. Like I said, the starter spins the motor fine when it does spin it. The starter is fairly new....6 months old or so.

I have no idea what's going on and I'm afraid to drive the car anywhere because I don't want to get somewhere and it not fire back up.

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions they could throw my way?

Thanks ahead of time.

Bryan

 

[squeak93]

If ur certain the starter is good then check your battery. I had a high comp Windsor that had this exact issue as well. Started perfect when cold but wouldn't crank once the motor was warmed. An upgrade to a new batt with good cranking amps solved my issue.

 

[big dad]

You need to have a VAT (voltage, amp, test) done. I concur with Five-Oh on this, sounds like a battery issue. With a VAT check you will have the battery capacity loaded to determine the state of charge and if it's capacity is up to specs.

 

[Five_oh]

I'll look into it. I'm beginning to think it could be a ground connection issue. The battery was relocated to the trunk before I bought it and there is a negative disconnect switch as well. The battery is grounded at the trunk latch, so I'm wondering if there isn't enough ground there for what it needs. I'm going to relocate the ground this weekend and see if it fixes the issue. If that doesn't fix it, I'll try the VAT. Can you recommend where to get that done? Local auto shop or is it something I can do on my own?

 

[squeak93]

You need to run multiple grounds. One from bat to frame. Engine to frame. Etc. Use heavy duty wire not the factory ground straps.

Any parts store can check the car for you.

 

[big dad]

The VAT check requires a load tester, and if possible a hydrometer to check the specific gravity of each cell if they can be accessed, (removable caps).
The specific gravity should not vary more than 25 points between each cell. If
it does, the battery is toast. Hope this helps.

P.S. If the specific gravity readings are within 25 points of each other but they are low (12.00 or lower) charge and retest the battery.

 

[Five_oh]

You need to run multiple grounds. One from bat to frame. Engine to frame. Etc. Use heavy duty wire not the factory ground straps.

Any parts store can check the car for you.

That was the plan this weekend. I have plenty of 0-Gauge wire laying around. Hopefully that'll solve the issue. I'll update either way.

Thanks

 

[Five_oh]

Well, the problem still exists. I replaced the current 4 gauge ground with a 0 gauge ground and grounded it to the frame. Then I ran a ground from the block to the frame and I'm still having the same issue. The next step is to pull the starter and have it tested.

Someone mentioned to me that because of the cam, I could have trouble starting on the first compression stroke.....Anyone have any input on this? It's got the B303 Cam.

Thanks!

 

[Jimboslice751]

I have the similar setup except for GT40 heads with higher compression and a B303. i never had a problem with it turning over but Only thing i can think of is the starter or maybe the solenoid.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Check the condition of the wires going all the way to the starter. I bad wire all the way to the starter can cause this as well. Remember a wire enduces resistance. The longer the wire run, the higher the resistance. Make sure the starter has a very good ground and the battery is grounded to a clean bare spot as well. You will have a marginal voltage drop that is somewhat greater for a battery located in the trunk vs one located in the stock spot under the hood. Now that, whatever it equates to, may be splitting hairs but its true. Check the engine timing too, if you run out of choices. Also some wear in the timing chain can cause this sort of problem, although that condition is usually more pronounced on a cold engine start up.

The Snake

 

[Five_oh]

Check the condition of the wires going all the way to the starter. I bad wire all the way to the starter can cause this as well. Remember a wire enduces resistance. The longer the wire run, the higher the resistance. Make sure the starter has a very good ground and the battery is grounded to a clean bare spot as well. You will have a marginal voltage drop that is somewhat greater for a battery located in the trunk vs one located in the stock spot under the hood. Now that, whatever it equates to, may be splitting hairs but its true. Check the engine timing too, if you run out of choices. Also some wear in the timing chain can cause this sort of problem, although that condition is usually more pronounced on a cold engine start up.

The Snake

Well, I pulled all the plugs this weekend and the turned the motor over and it turned over like there was no issue at all. This, in my opinion, tells me that there isn't an issue with wiring.

My next step was to check timing. I pulled the chip and the timing was sitting around 12-14* BTDC. I adjusted it to 10* BTDC and put the chip back in. Turned the car off and started it back up with no issues. I did this 3 or 4 times and then took it for a trip around the block. Once I got it back in the garage I turned the car off and let it sit for about 30 second. I turned the key over again and was right back to the same problem as before. I don't think this has anything to do with the temperature of the engine because it will also do this at times when the motor is cold.

To give you an idea of what it's doing, it's almost like the piston hits something and it stops, but I can get out of the car and turn the motor by hand with a ratchet. It's got some resistance, but nothing I wouldn't expect to see. When this happens, you can hear the starter whining like it's trying to turn the motor, but can't. I'm beginning to lean towards a high torque starter, but I don't want to spend the money on it and it not correct the issue. In my eyes, my setup doesn't add enough compression to warrant a high torque starter. If I remember correctly, the GT40P heads only add .5 to the C/R....

The starter on the car is fairly new....6 months old or so. This tells me that the previous owner had the same issue.

I'm to a point where I want to light the car on fire and walk away from it.

 

[big dad]

Did you have the battery checked for capacity? Now I'm confused about your problem. Are you stating that the starter turns over then it whines?
If that's the case you may have a starter drive (or Bendix) that's bad. Also if the starter drive is the problem check the teeth on the flywheel for damage.

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Ditto on the starter issues...bendix and flywheel. The more we trouble shoot this with you, the more I am leaning toward a timing issue and I know you just checked that. How many miles is on this engine? Understand that even though the timing is checked and set properly at the distributor, if the timing chain and/or the sprockets are worn, thus inducing some "slop" to the system, it can present itself with the problems you discribe. I have seen this condition before for that very reason. Years ago my Mother went through this on an old T-Bird with a 351M. High mileage. Same sluggish start problem. The Dealership, and she always used the dealer for repairs and service, replaced the alternator, then the Battery, then the starter, then a couple of things I dont even remember, until I got in on it finally and went into the front "face" of the engine and replace the chain and the sprockets. Problem went away. She spent a lot of money without cause though.

The Snake

 

[squeak93]

Well, I pulled all the plugs this weekend and the turned the motor over and it turned over like there was no issue at all. This, in my opinion, tells me that there isn't an issue with wiring.

Can you elaborate on the reasoning and method here?

 

[GeorgiaSnake]

Addition here on a high torque starter. I agree that you dont need to go to that expence. I used to have a High Performance I-6 in a 65 Mustang I built years ago. The engine had 13.75:1 compression. I had a stock starter on it. Same starter that is used on a 289/302/351W and with only minor differances the same as a Fox Mustang up until 1991. That starter would turn that high compression engine over all day long, no problem. The starter, as a type anyway, is fine. No reason I know of to upgrade that.

The Snake

 

[Five_oh]

Did you have the battery checked for capacity? Now I'm confused about your problem. Are you stating that the starter turns over then it whines?
If that's the case you may have a starter drive (or Bendix) that's bad. Also if the starter drive is the problem check the teeth on the flywheel for damage.

I haven't had it checked. Do I need to have it in car? Meaning drive the car to AutoZone or Advanaced or wherever I take it? If so, it presents an issue because I haven't registered the car yet. Last time I took her for a spin around the block, I got pulled over for no tag. I was literally on the road for 5 minutes driving normal. Haha.

Ditto on the starter issues...bendix and flywheel. The more we trouble shoot this with you, the more I am leaning toward a timing issue and I know you just checked that. How many miles is on this engine? Understand that even though the timing is checked and set properly at the distributor, if the timing chain and/or the sprockets are worn, thus inducing some "slop" to the system, it can present itself with the problems you discribe. I have seen this condition before for that very reason. Years ago my Mother went through this on an old T-Bird with a 351M. High mileage. Same sluggish start problem. The Dealership, and she always used the dealer for repairs and service, replaced the alternator, then the Battery, then the starter, then a couple of things I dont even remember, until I got in on it finally and went into the front "face" of the engine and replace the chain and the sprockets. Problem went away. She spent a lot of money without cause though.

The Snake

I've had a good friend who knows his stuff also mention the bendix....He's also mentioned the timing chain as well. I just don't want to have to pull the entire front of the engine off to check it and it be fine. I guess that's better than it being the issue and me not knowing.

Can you elaborate on the reasoning and method here?

Sure thing. I initially thought it was sparking too early on the compression stroke not allowing the motor to turn. The reasoning was mainly to check the starter and power to the starter. Once I pulled the plugs, allowing the air to exit through the plug hole, everything spun fine.

Addition here on a high torque starter. I agree that you dont need to go to that expence. I used to have a High Performance I-6 in a 65 Mustang I built years ago. The engine had 13.75:1 compression. I had a stock starter on it. Same starter that is used on a 289/302/351W and with only minor differances the same as a Fox Mustang up until 1991. That starter would turn that high compression engine over all day long, no problem. The starter, as a type anyway, is fine. No reason I know of to upgrade that.

The Snake

Thanks. I'm not going to go that route unless I absolutely have to. The good thing it that the car is a project, so I don't have to have it fixed in a hurry. I'll probably start pulling the accessories and whatnot of the motor today to get to the timing chain.....Can you give a little insight on how much tension should be there? I'm not really mchanically inclined. I can do basic stuff, but as far as knowing how much tension should be on a chain according to touch, I'm at a loss.

Thanks everyone.

Bryan

 

[big dad]

You can remove the battery and have it load tested for capacity. If you don't know where the problem is, find out where it isn't. Do the easy things first before you take it apart and find out you wasted time and money.

 

[Five_oh]

You can remove the battery and have it load tested for capacity. If you don't know where the problem is, find out where it isn't. Do the easy things first before you take it apart and find out you wasted time and money.

I'll run it up to AZ this evening and have them test it. I honestly don't think this is where the issue lies though. My reasoning be hind this is that when I bought the car, the guy sent me a video of it so I could kind of gauge what I was getting myself into. In the video, he had an Optima Yellowtop battery on the car and it did the same thing (tried to start, he backed off and then started up).

I think the list is narrowing, but it's getting to a point where the bigger named items are the potential suspects.

 

[Five_oh]

Is there a way to post video without using another website? I got a video of what it's doing. Also, too the battery to AZ and the test was good. Just needed to be charged a little.

 

[big dad]

I've seen this before with Optima batteries, in fact I got a call from one of my buddies who owns a body shop, and he had a 383 SBC in a trike he was working on and it did the same thing. I tested the battery and my tester said it was OK, but everything else had been replaced including the starter.
So, I told him to get a regular wet cell battery, which he did, problem solved.

Before you spend any money unnecessarily, put a known good wet cell battery with at least 550cca in the car and see if that cures the problem.