A few months ago i bought an semi auto AK47 from my cousin, is it legal for me to just trade the gun for a motorcycle? I found an ad on craigslist for an older bike i wanted to practice on it before i moved to a bigger bike, and the guy said he would take trades for an AK. I live in Indiana if that matters
trading a rifle
- Thread starter BossHogg
- Start date
I dont know about your counties local restrictions if any, but I would just go with the guy to a gun shop with a FFL and have them complete the transfer if thats how it has to be done to sell them. Not sure on the regulations. The LEOs can give you more of a solid answer
In order to sell a firearm, you must go to a licenced FFL dealer, with the party you are selling to. At least, that is how it is in california, I am not sure about other states. I am a licenced FFL dealer in the state of California, but the laws here are crazy, so if you want to be 100% sure, go by CA laws.
technically you could just "trade" for the bike however legal ownership will remain with you. If this new owner does a crime with your old gun the cops will come lookin for you and not him.
id go to the nearest gun shop and ask them
If you didn't have to do any paper work when you bought it then its not in your name so i wouldn't worry about it just trade it to whoever you want if you did do paper work and it is in your name then i would just get the guys name and info off of him drivers license and hang on to it in case anything would ever come up down the road i sold a gun registered in my name at gun show one time and then about five years down the road ATF agents where knocking on my door one day because it had been used in a crime and they recovered it i just told them where and to who i sold it to and that was it i never heard from them again.
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It's private sale so government is SOL. FFL rules are for commercial resellers.
However, this guy is a complete stranger to you and you have no idea if this guy is a felon or prohibited possessor.
However, this guy is a complete stranger to you and you have no idea if this guy is a felon or prohibited possessor.
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Have the guy fill out a bill of sale .. it will protect both of you incase 1) the gun is stolen or 2) he uses it in a crime.
Bill of Sale
Transfer of Ownership
For $______ received, I, (seller’s name here), have sold to (buyer's name here)
One (1) ABC Model XYZ firearm description here, Serial # _____________
Any other accessories here
I represent that this ___________ is not stolen. I am the owner of the _______ listed above. If it can be shown now or in the future that this _______ was stolen prior to the date listed below, I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the _______ and all accessories listed above.
Sold as is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts added to the ___________.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts on the ________.
Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose of this ________ and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said _________.
Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.
Buyer: Name Here
Seller: Name Here
Date:_________________________
Buyer: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Seller: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Bill of Sale
Transfer of Ownership
For $______ received, I, (seller’s name here), have sold to (buyer's name here)
One (1) ABC Model XYZ firearm description here, Serial # _____________
Any other accessories here
I represent that this ___________ is not stolen. I am the owner of the _______ listed above. If it can be shown now or in the future that this _______ was stolen prior to the date listed below, I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the _______ and all accessories listed above.
Sold as is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts added to the ___________.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts on the ________.
Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose of this ________ and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said _________.
Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.
Buyer: Name Here
Seller: Name Here
Date:_________________________
Buyer: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Seller: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
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:lol: at all the people in California and Illinois giving gun sales advice. Those are the two most screwed up states in the union for gun ownership and sales.
You can do a face to face deal within your state without involving an FFL dealer. If you feel confident the person purchasing the firearm can legally own it (or even in you don't), it's completely legal to sell.
To cover yourself to an extent, it is better to have an FFL dealer perform the transfer and run a NICS check on the buyer.
If you do decide to do a face to face deal, I would suggest as above providing a bill of sale showing you no longer have any ownership interest in the firearm. Many people around here also like to make a copy of the buyer's drivers license.
If they have a concealed carry permit, I would just ask to see it and go about the deal.
You can do a face to face deal within your state without involving an FFL dealer. If you feel confident the person purchasing the firearm can legally own it (or even in you don't), it's completely legal to sell.
To cover yourself to an extent, it is better to have an FFL dealer perform the transfer and run a NICS check on the buyer.
If you do decide to do a face to face deal, I would suggest as above providing a bill of sale showing you no longer have any ownership interest in the firearm. Many people around here also like to make a copy of the buyer's drivers license.
If they have a concealed carry permit, I would just ask to see it and go about the deal.
STG
Banned
Firearms Division
Indiana State Police
317.233.5054 Direct Phone: Ask for Debbie
Indiana State Police
317.233.5054 Direct Phone: Ask for Debbie
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Note. There is no national list of gun owners/weapons, it's prohibited by federal law. The ATF can do a firearm trace, but if you say you sold you.... that's the end of it in most cases.
I agree 100% with you on the laws of IL. being messed up. But you can sell a gun between two people just as you wrote above in IL also. At least IL as a hole doesnt have a ban on high cap. mags like some other states do. Otherwise yeah IL sucks for gun owners!
I was referring to this post. By the way he phrased things, it sounded like he was referring to registration like Chicago requires.
Legal ownership does not remain with you once you have given the firearm to someone else, but the only way to prove this is with a valid bill of sale. Also, the authorities would need the ability to trace the firearm back to the owner. In states that don't require gun registration, this isn't an easy thing to do. The police can find which dealer originally sold the gun. If it's been less than 10 years, the dealer should have their bound book and can reference the owner. If you bought the gun used, all bets are off.
Actually there is a list; it's for title 2 firearms and devices. I'm on it several times, but you're correct; there is no list maintained by the ATF for title 1 firearms.
Agree 100%. You can't even be in possession of a single round of ammo unless you have a special license from the state. It's called a Firearms Owners ID. If you exchange a firearm without going through a FFL, you can get 10 years in prison.
Absurd.
Who in their right mind would sell a firearm without going through the one REAL insulator from criminal charges and civil liability- a FFL dealer. Best insurance you can buy. Can you trust a "buyer" to tell you the truth as to whether he is a convicted felon- or worse a mental patent? What if the rifle you have is stolen? Aside from the obvious, poss of stolen property, you now would have an additional charge. Not to mention, what if that rifle is used in a crime...Not your fault, heh? That is an issue to litigate.
Yes, even in this state you can sell to another but I am not foolish enough to do so.
Lastly, those of us who believe in the Second Amendment, know how close we are to losing it or having it all but eliminated. Why risk that right by such reckless indifference.
Yes, even in this state you can sell to another but I am not foolish enough to do so.
Lastly, those of us who believe in the Second Amendment, know how close we are to losing it or having it all but eliminated. Why risk that right by such reckless indifference.
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Not 100% correct, in IL two people with FOID cards can sell firearms to each other via a private party sale. Each person however has to keep a record of the sale for 10 years. Private party sales do not require an FFL in IL, just a record of the sale for 10 years and 2 valid FOID cards.
But, that doesn't matter to the thread starter....
STG
Banned
Uh, EVERYBODY in a state that doesn't require paperwork. Everybody in Wyoming has at least one "off the books" firearm that was paid for in cash. It's a real nice feeling with Obama in office.
THIS IS HOW TO PROTECT THE 2ND AMENDMENT
2009 Montana Legislature
HOUSE BILL NO. 246
INTRODUCED BY J. BONIEK, BENNETT, BUTCHER, CURTISS, RANDALL, WARBURTON
AN ACT EXEMPTING FROM FEDERAL REGULATION UNDER THE COMMERCE CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES A FIREARM, A FIREARM ACCESSORY, OR AMMUNITION MANUFACTURED AND RETAINED IN MONTANA; AND PROVIDING AN APPLICABILITY DATE.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:
Section 1. Short title. [Sections 1 through 6] may be cited as the "Montana Firearms Freedom Act".
Section 2. Legislative declarations of authority. The legislature declares that the authority for [sections 1 through 6] is the following:
(1) The 10th amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to the states and their people all powers not granted to the federal government elsewhere in the constitution and reserves to the state and people of Montana certain powers as they were understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those powers is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(2) The ninth amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to the people rights not granted in the constitution and reserves to the people of Montana certain rights as they were understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those rights is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(3) The regulation of intrastate commerce is vested in the states under the 9th and 10th amendments to the United States constitution, particularly if not expressly preempted by federal law. Congress has not expressly preempted state regulation of intrastate commerce pertaining to the manufacture on an intrastate basis of firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition.
(4) The second amendment to the United States constitution reserves to the people the right to keep and bear arms as that right was understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889, and the guaranty of the right is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(5) Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution clearly secures to Montana citizens, and prohibits government interference with, the right of individual Montana citizens to keep and bear arms. This constitutional protection is unchanged from the 1889 Montana constitution, which was approved by congress and the people of Montana, and the right exists as it was understood at the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
Section 3. Definitions. As used in [sections 1 through 6], the following definitions apply:
(1) "Borders of Montana" means the boundaries of Montana described in Article I, section 1, of the 1889 Montana constitution.
(2) "Firearms accessories" means items that are used in conjunction with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function of a firearm, including but not limited to telescopic or laser sights, magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and grips, speedloaders, ammunition carriers, and lights for target illumination.
(3) "Generic and insignificant parts" includes but is not limited to springs, screws, nuts, and pins.
(4) "Manufactured" means that a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition has been created from basic materials for functional usefulness, including but not limited to forging, casting, machining, or other processes for working materials.
Section 4. Prohibitions. A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Montana and that remains within the borders of Montana is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured in Montana from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state. Generic and insignificant parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition, and their importation into Montana and incorporation into a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured in Montana does not subject the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition to federal regulation. It is declared by the legislature that basic materials, such as unmachined steel and unshaped wood, are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition and are not subject to congressional authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition under interstate commerce as if they were actually firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition. The authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce in basic materials does not include authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition made in Montana from those materials. Firearms accessories that are imported into Montana from another state and that are subject to federal regulation as being in interstate commerce do not subject a firearm to federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached to or used in conjunction with a firearm in Montana.
Section 5. Exceptions. [Section 4] does not apply to:
(1) a firearm that cannot be carried and used by one person;
(2) a firearm that has a bore diameter greater than 1 1/2 inches and that uses smokeless powder, not black powder, as a propellant;
(3) ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or
(4) a firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or other firing device.
Section 6. Marketing of firearms. A firearm manufactured or sold in Montana under [sections 1 through 6] must have the words "Made in Montana" clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as the receiver or frame.
Section 7. Codification instruction. [Sections 1 through 6] are intended to be codified as an integral part of Title 30, and the provisions of Title 30 apply to [sections 1 through 6].
Section 8. Applicability. [This act] applies to firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured, as defined in [section 3], and retained in Montana after October 1, 2009
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I was with ATF for 28 years. Private transfers, FEDERALLY, are not regulated provided they are otherwise legal (the receiving party not a felon, drug user, etc.). And, you have to comply with your State/local requirments which you can probably obtain from the Indiana State Police. That being said, I, personally, would only transfer a firearm through an FFL - the cost is minimal. It covers you a lot of ways as the new prospective owner will be subject to a background check. If he balks at this, then I would stay way away from trading a gun to someone who does not want a background check run - can you guess why?
And, as others pointed out, there is no Federal "registration" of Title 1 firearms.
While everyone expresses concern about firearms ownership, the President cannot change the 2nd Amendment. And, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the right to keep and bear firarms is an individual, rather than a group (militia), right in the DC case. So, I am unsure why there is such a concern of firearms rights erosion. Regardless of your politics or opinions, we still have the 2nd Amendment. And, only Congress can propose a Constitutional amendment, which takes a LOT of work and must be ratified by, I think, 3/4 of the States, too. There are much more important things for our Government to address right now than attempting to change the firearms laws; which, as Forest Gump said, is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you'll get.
And, as others pointed out, there is no Federal "registration" of Title 1 firearms.
While everyone expresses concern about firearms ownership, the President cannot change the 2nd Amendment. And, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the right to keep and bear firarms is an individual, rather than a group (militia), right in the DC case. So, I am unsure why there is such a concern of firearms rights erosion. Regardless of your politics or opinions, we still have the 2nd Amendment. And, only Congress can propose a Constitutional amendment, which takes a LOT of work and must be ratified by, I think, 3/4 of the States, too. There are much more important things for our Government to address right now than attempting to change the firearms laws; which, as Forest Gump said, is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you'll get.
That's nice and all, but in the end it doesn't protect anything. The Constitution states federal statutes are the "supreme law of the land". Thus federal law trumps state law. Until something comes to pass, that is and will be the case and you are still subject to the firearm laws in place.
Feel free to manufacture a title 2 firearm, take it to a public range, and let us know what happens when BATFE knocks at your door.
The concern is the Constitution is a living document and is open to interpretation. While SCOTUS has ruled gun ownership is an individual right, they did not expand on which guns are legal to own, etc. It is possible through case law the definition of the Second Amendment changes and becomes more narrow. Courts could say it's only legal to own a single shot firearm without the need for a Constitutional amendment.
Being an ATF agent for as long as you were, I'm sure you are well aware of the policies your former agency has arbitrarily initiated. One such is the ban on importation of foreign made barrels for "non-sporting" (another arbitrary BATFE term) rifles. This was an internal policy made by BATFE without being voted on by our representatives Congress. In my book, that is an erosion of our firearms rights, and is a definite cause for concern.
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