Torque Arm?

[mackdog2008]

What are your thoughts about a torque arm?

I'm looking into one and want to see what you guys think about it, what are the positives and what are the negatives.

Thanks.

 

[TheVikingRL]

It's been debated and beaten to death on other forums. A few people swear by it, most say it's overkill and unnecessary on the 2005+ 3 link cars.

IMO, the biggest negative is a massive investment in time and money without any obvious/undisputable benefit over a properly configured 3 link.

 

[CSG]

It's been debated and beaten to death on other forums. A few people swear by it, most say it's overkill and unnecessary on the 2005+ 3 link cars.

IMO, the biggest negative is a massive investment in time and money without any obvious/undisputable benefit over a properly configured 3 link.

X2

I had a TA car and a 3-link car (same chassis) at the same time and would not bother switching a S197 to a TA

 

[86Fbody]

Only negative I have heard is rear end hop under hard braking at the track. Not sure if that is resolved when you do a TA with Watts and remove the UCA.

 

[mavisky]

Everything I've read says that a Watts link setup would be a far better investment on an S197 car.

 

[CSG]

Everything I've read says that a Watts link setup would be a far better investment on an S197 car.

I have tried those as well. Not worth the money when you already have a good panhard bar.

 

[CSG]

Only negative I have heard is rear end hop under hard braking at the track. Not sure if that is resolved when you do a TA with Watts and remove the UCA.

No, it does not resolve it. I hardly ever hopped mine though. Usually in long races once I was fatigued I might hop it a time or two.

 

[mavisky]

I have tried those as well. Not worth the money when you already have a good panhard bar.

Are you talking about straight line performance, or cornering and handling bumps mid-corner. If it's the first I'd agree, but the second I'd absolutely disagree. The nature of the panhard bar alone keeps it from being equal, besides BMR is about to release a $4-500 watts link. An adustable panhard bar and brace will set you back $250.

 

[CSG]

Are you talking about straight line performance, or cornering and handling bumps mid-corner. If it's the first I'd agree, but the second I'd absolutely disagree. The nature of the panhard bar alone keeps it from being equal, besides BMR is about to release a $4-500 watts link. An adustable panhard bar and brace will set you back $250.

Cornering. I was a wheel to wheel driver up until a couple years back. I have set pole many times and won many races and I am no faster with a watts over a panhard. I also have a bit of suspension design experience and will agree that on paper a watts is better, no doubt about it. If you have neither then you might as well get a watts link but the difference in performance is not enough to warrant a switch from a properly designed (& setup) panhard bar. I have ran both back to back on my own cars so I have personal experience with this.

 

[101blur]

Funny I have been looking into this for my car as well. I spoke and purchased some parts at length with a fellow that races for Cortex who has a full Spec mustang loaded with all cortex suspension parts races all the time. tols me hands down the torque arm was the best investment he has made for suspension upgrade says it allowed him to have much flatter and controllable corner exit speeds and recommended it over the Watts link.
anyways this is just one mans opinion but being his track history and involvement I took what he said to heart. When it come time I may further look into one but be nice to see what other have said also.

 

[86Fbody]

Funny I have been looking into this for my car as well. I spoke and purchased some parts at length with a fellow that races for Cortex who has a full Spec mustang loaded with all cortex suspension parts races all the time. tols me hands down the torque arm was the best investment he has made for suspension upgrade says it allowed him to have much flatter and controllable corner exit speeds and recommended it over the Watts link.
anyways this is just one mans opinion but being his track history and involvement I took what he said to heart. When it come time I may further look into one but be nice to see what other have said also.

Just remember each driver and car is different, what works for him may not be needed or work for you. Randy Pobst wrote an article about something similar recently for SCCA's magazine.

 

[101blur]

Just remember each driver and car is different, what works for him may not be needed or work for you. Randy Pobst wrote an article about something similar recently for SCCA's magazine.

Indeed your are very correct. Still hard choice since both watts link and torque are kits tend to run the same price range.
Only time will tell that is behind the wheel.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

Cornering. I was a wheel to wheel driver up until a couple years back. I have set pole many times and won many races and I am no faster with a watts over a panhard. I also have a bit of suspension design experience and will agree that on paper a watts is better, no doubt about it. If you have neither then you might as well get a watts link but the difference in performance is not enough to warrant a switch from a properly designed (& setup) panhard bar. I have ran both back to back on my own cars so I have personal experience with this.

I'm curious what type of wheel to wheel racing did you do? What car did you do it in? We're talking about a mustang with bolt on suspension parts not a custom road racing car on a tube chassis, or a NASCAR.. We're talking mustangs. I can tell you first hand as I've had both a MM Panhard, and now a Griggs watts link it is a night and day difference and on the track I drove two different griggs cars one with a watts and one with a panhard, I was faster with a watts link car. It's neutral thought the esses more so than a panhard. The transition is seem less. Granted I'm a expeirenced driver and I can tell the difference. Hell I can tell the difference in my car on back round going up the mountain to santa cruz, ca.

So again I'm very curious as to what style racing you did and maybe the tracks you raced at didn't have very many esses where you WILL notice a major difference.

 

[CSG]

Funny I have been looking into this for my car as well. I spoke and purchased some parts at length with a fellow that races for Cortex who has a full Spec mustang loaded with all cortex suspension parts races all the time. tols me hands down the torque arm was the best investment he has made for suspension upgrade says it allowed him to have much flatter and controllable corner exit speeds and recommended it over the Watts link.
anyways this is just one mans opinion but being his track history and involvement I took what he said to heart. When it come time I may further look into one but be nice to see what other have said also.

TA and watts perform two different tasks... can't compare those two.

 

[CSG]

My track car is a 98 Cobra. I have also done a full setup with a watts and 3 link on a 93 coupe street/track car. We will have to agree to disagree on the extra value of a watts over a panhard bar. The lateral movement of the panhard bar on my Cobra from ride height to full bump was .0346" so there is just not much there to gain. The real advantage to me of a watts is the ability to change the rear roll center. I am picky about setting roll axis inclination and setting my car to drive neutral with a very slight tip to understeer in case I make a boneheaded move. I am curious as to where the front/rear roll centers were at on the cars you compared.

 

[mackdog2008]

I already have a watts link on my car, I just want ot know what a torque arm does, what will I benefit from one also what will ( if any ) be the down side of one?

I plan to run at Hallett and also hit the drag strip a couple of times a year.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

My track car is a 98 Cobra. I have also done a full setup with a watts and 3 link on a 93 coupe street/track car. We will have to agree to disagree on the extra value of a watts over a panhard bar. The lateral movement of the panhard bar on my Cobra from ride height to full bump was .0346" so there is just not much there to gain. The real advantage to me of a watts is the ability to change the rear roll center. I am picky about setting roll axis inclination and setting my car to drive neutral with a very slight tip to understeer in case I make a boneheaded move. I am curious as to where the front/rear roll centers were at on the cars you compared.

Changing the roll center is key. Much like mixing and matching suspension parts.. MM and Griggs have two different roll centers front and rear. MM runs a really low roll center with with panhard, and I believe the Watts link from Griggs (depending on where you set it) is higher.. Mine is set to where John recommended it.. Compared to my MM panhard it was a night and day difference.

The cars I drove were both Griggs cars, one with their panhard the other with the watts link.. I couldn't tell you where they were set at and if they were the same. At Infineon raceway it's a night and day difference, but there are a lot of Esses at Infineon which is where I noticed it the most, which why I asked what courses you ran at. See that you're from Louisiana I would assume you run at that new course out there. I tried to get out there when I lived in Mobile, AL but it never happened. If you're mainly driving on long sweeping road coarses you are less likely to be able to tell the difference, it's the thight technical courses that they really shine which is just about every course out here in CA lol. Not saying the panhard doesn't work, I had on on my car for like 10 years.. It worked great.

 

[101blur]

TA and watts perform two different tasks... can't compare those two.

While this is true you have to realize they both fall around $800-$1000 price range and are both for rear end suspension for handling and traction so in that case I find them to be in competition with each other very heavily.

 

[101blur]

maybe this will help with explaining what each part does.

http://www.cortexracing.com/shop/torque-arm-s197/

http://www.cortexracing.com/shop/xtreme-grip-watts-link-system-street-2005/

As you can see both are the same exact price but the torque arm requires the addition of adjustable lower control arms.