Thinking of trunk mount IC res

[BADASS03SVT]

I believe if the waterflow is too fast, heat cannot be dissipated or absorbed efficiently. I'm not sure if 25gpm is at this limit, but it's worth noting I suppose. I have limited knowledge on this hardware specifically, but heat transfer is something of a tricky business. Good luck with the setup.

that makes sense

 

[Senkak]

My tuner mentioned an option for the hard core drag racer.
He suggested that a 2 chamber rear IC tank would be ideal.
One tank would be full of ice/water and one would be a return tank for the heated water.
This way there is no hot water mixing with the ice water heating it up.

 

[MVD]

My tuner mentioned an option for the hard core drag racer.
He suggested that a 2 chamber rear IC tank would be ideal.
One tank would be full of ice/water and one would be a return tank for the heated water.
This way there is no hot water mixing with the ice water heating it up.

That is a terrible idea. In order to do that you would have to calculate how much fluid the pump can pump from the time you turn it on to the end of a pass. Because if you don't, once the pump pulls all the ice water out and returns it to the "hot" side the pump will run dry. At a guess I would say you will need 10+ gallons.......and that is only if you start the pump right before a pass.

Your tuner needs to get some real world info. When you fill up a 5 gallon cell with ice water the return water is still ice cold. You simply can not transfer enough heat fast enough to "heat up" the fluid, even with the "slow" OEM pump. After a full pass you can return to the pits and there is still ice in the tank, and that is with the pump running while doing a burnout.

 

[Senkak]

That is a terrible idea. In order to do that you would have to calculate how much fluid the pump can pump from the time you turn it on to the end of a pass. Because if you don't, once the pump pulls all the ice water out and returns it to the "hot" side the pump will run dry. At a guess I would say you will need 10+ gallons.......and that is only if you start the pump right before a pass.

Your tuner needs to get some real world info. When you fill up a 5 gallon cell with ice water the return water is still ice cold. You simply can not transfer enough heat fast enough to "heat up" the fluid, even with the "slow" OEM pump. After a full pass you can return to the pits and there is still ice in the tank, and that is with the pump running while doing a burnout.

I was curious about this and did a bit of research and it seems so pro drag race teams have a similar set ups.
Way to much for my needs but not a bad idea.
I agree there is still some ice in the tank upon return which means a lot of ice has melted either from sitting or having warmer water returned from the system.
Obviously the colder the water the better.
If the stock IC pumps 5gpm I would think that gives you a lot of time to run without draining the tank.

I don't want to take over the thread with this but I thought it was a neat idea and thought I would throw it out there.

 

[MVD]

If the stock IC pumps 5gpm I would think that gives you a lot of time to run without draining the tank.

Well that is true if you start the pump right before making a pass.......however what is the point of that?? If you want to keep temps cool you have to keep the IC cool which means running the pump while doing a burnout, staging etc. If you let everything get hot, it will not even be able to cool back down over the course of a 10 second pass.

 

[Senkak]

Well that is true if you start the pump right before making a pass.......however what is the point of that?? If you want to keep temps cool you have to keep the IC cool which means running the pump while doing a burnout, staging etc. If you let everything get hot, it will not even be able to cool back down over the course of a 10 second pass.

You bring up a good point. While my car sitting in the staging lane I fill the tank with ice, run it until no more ice is melting, drain then refill it with ice waiting to run.
I do my burnout then turn the pump on.
I wonder if I should turn it on before the burnout?

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Your tuner needs to get some real world info. When you fill up a 5 gallon cell with ice water the return water is still ice cold. You simply can not transfer enough heat fast enough to "heat up" the fluid, even with the "slow" OEM pump. After a full pass you can return to the pits and there is still ice in the tank, and that is with the pump running while doing a burnout.

Ive used half of a 5lb bag in my Vortech water box before and there was nothing left when I got back to the trailer. even when I have had the IC water down to 40 degree's @ burnout in the fall weather, at the top end it still hits 80+.

I think with the 6 gallon tanks, opposed to my 2 gallon Vortech now, will hold the volume enough to keep ice in there for 2 passes. but is th epump going to flow too much like was said above?

 

[BADASS03SVT]

You bring up a good point. While my car sitting in the staging lane I fill the tank with ice, run it until no more ice is melting, drain then refill it with ice waiting to run.
I do my burnout then turn the pump on.
I wonder if I should turn it on before the burnout?

I let my relay do the work. comes on right before I do my burnout most of the time. so I have the coldest water in there for that because your not moving so there is no airflow over the HE.

 

[4sdvenom]

I believe if the waterflow is too fast, heat cannot be dissipated or absorbed efficiently. I'm not sure if 25gpm is at this limit, but it's worth noting I suppose. I have limited knowledge on this hardware specifically, but heat transfer is something of a tricky business. Good luck with the setup.

The water flow will not be to fast.

Your right that the water won't absorb as much heat from the IC...BUT (read on carefully). The whole point is for the IC to be as cold as possible, and with a higher flowing pump you will ensure that. Look at it like this. The slower the water the more heat the water absorbs, and the potential to warm the water enough that it quits doing its job while still in the IC is there plus warmer wter will melt ice faster. If you speed up the water, with a higher GPM flowing pump, the less time the water spends in the IC, but the same amount of heat will still be absorbed (if not more) since there is a larger volume of water moving through the IC in the same amount of time. If you move 3 gallons through the IC in 1 minute and remove 100 degrees of heat from the air, or if you move 25 gallons through the IC in 1 minute and remove 100 degrees of heat from the air, it makes no difference. You gain however since the delta T of the water is not changing as drastically once exiting the IC and will be colder when returning to the tank, melting the ice slower than the slower moving warmer water will.

that makes sense

see above

You bring up a good point. While my car sitting in the staging lane I fill the tank with ice, run it until no more ice is melting, drain then refill it with ice waiting to run.
I do my burnout then turn the pump on.
I wonder if I should turn it on before the burnout?

Turn the pump on right before you start the burnout. The system needs time to recover and cool back down from not having the pump running.

 

[mu22stang]

The water flow will not be to fast.

Your right that the water won't absorb as much heat from the IC...BUT (read on carefully). The whole point is for the IC to be as cold as possible, and with a higher flowing pump you will ensure that. Look at it like this. The slower the water the more heat the water absorbs, and the potential to warm the water enough that it quits doing its job while still in the IC is there plus warmer wter will melt ice faster. If you speed up the water, with a higher GPM flowing pump, the less time the water spends in the IC, but the same amount of heat will still be absorbed (if not more) since there is a larger volume of water moving through the IC in the same amount of time. If you move 3 gallons through the IC in 1 minute and remove 100 degrees of heat from the air, or if you move 25 gallons through the IC in 1 minute and remove 100 degrees of heat from the air, it makes no difference. You gain however since the delta T of the water is not changing as drastically once exiting the IC and will be colder when returning to the tank, melting the ice slower than the slower moving warmer water will.

Have you tested any of this or are you basing this on intuition? Some of your explanation doesn't make sense.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Have you tested any of this or are you basing this on intuition? Some of your explanation doesn't make sense.

op:

 

[4sdvenom]

Have you tested any of this or are you basing this on intuition? Some of your explanation doesn't make sense.

I have been in the HVAC trade for 17 years. I design, layout and install Industrial systems, including Ice bank systems. Same thing, larger scale. It's common practice to know that the lower the Delta T (temerature change) you can create with the water through a heat absorbtion unit (IC), the more efficient the system will function by not having to cool the water back down as much, yet still get the full cooling capacity out of it. In this case the cooler water returning to the tank will not deplete the ice as fast, and WILL have a faster recovery time. Its not rocket science.

So to answer your question, NO it's not intuition, and yes it has been tested plenty of times with larger scale systems. If it's good enough for multi-million dollar cooling systems in Industrial applications, then yes, it applies and is good enough for a damn intercooler system. If you want a more direct comparison, we have done the same thing with ice banks on aftercooler systems that use Industrial sized twinscrew compressors (bigger than a fulley assembled big block motor) for Vacuum and compressor purposes in plastic manufacturing facilities, and we set the flow control on the circulation pumps usually around 8 feet per second, which is far more than typical circulation systems for that very reason.

So maybe you can explain what part I posted that doesn't make sense, or then again maybe you just didn't follow or understand it?

Ken

 

[BADASS03SVT]

nice Ken....good stuff!

I will be taing notes/taping/logging my setup hopefully in the next wek or 2. Rob is building my 6 gallon tank now w/ intank pump. Ill swap that out and see what happens and try to use the same temps/weather etc.

 

[mu22stang]

I have been in the HVAC trade for 17 years. I design, layout and install Industrial systems, including Ice bank systems. Same thing, larger scale. It's common practice to know that the lower the Delta T (temerature change) you can create with the water through a heat absorbtion unit (IC), the more efficient the system will function by not having to cool the water back down as much, yet still get the full cooling capacity out of it. In this case the cooler water returning to the tank will not deplete the ice as fast, and WILL have a faster recovery time. Its not rocket science.

So to answer your question, NO it's not intuition, and yes it has been tested plenty of times with larger scale systems. If it's good enough for multi-million dollar cooling systems in Industrial applications, then yes, it applies and is good enough for a damn intercooler system. If you want a more direct comparison, we have done the same thing with ice banks on aftercooler systems that use Industrial sized twinscrew compressors (bigger than a fulley assembled big block motor) for Vacuum and compressor purposes in plastic manufacturing facilities, and we set the flow control on the circulation pumps usually around 8 feet per second, which is far more than typical circulation systems for that very reason.

So maybe you can explain what part I posted that doesn't make sense, or then again maybe you just didn't follow or understand it?

Ken

As I stated, heat transfer is a tricky business, and you just proved that. My confusion was in the difference in degrees of heat transferred over a period of time and the varying gpm of the compared systems. This stuff is not intuitive, and it does take someone in the know to explain it.

Once again, this setup is new to me and caters to a different crowd, but since you've worked with ice bank systems, would it be beneficial to switch the order of the components? Starting at the intercooler the coolant would flow through the heat exchanger and then back to the IC. If it's done in the stock order, the heat exchanger potentially heats the water up after leaving the ice cold reservoir before going to the IC. If the system is being revamped entirely anyways, I'd assume this would be the case.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

As I stated, heat transfer is a tricky business, and you just proved that. My confusion was in the difference in degrees of heat transferred over a period of time and the varying gpm of the compared systems. This stuff is not intuitive, and it does take someone in the know to explain it.

Once again, this setup is new to me and caters to a different crowd, but since you've worked with ice bank systems, would it be beneficial to switch the order of the components? Starting at the intercooler the coolant would flow through the heat exchanger and then back to the IC. If it's done in the stock order, the heat exchanger potentially heats the water up after leaving the ice cold reservoir before going to the IC. If the system is being revamped entirely anyways, I'd assume this would be the case.

yes...alot of guys now are going

from tank, to pump, to ic, to he, back to tank.

I might just take out the HE alltogether as its 90% a track car. maybe test it on the street and see what she does.

 

[4sdvenom]

As I stated, heat transfer is a tricky business, and you just proved that. My confusion was in the difference in degrees of heat transferred over a period of time and the varying gpm of the compared systems. This stuff is not intuitive, and it does take someone in the know to explain it.

Once again, this setup is new to me and caters to a different crowd, but since you've worked with ice bank systems, would it be beneficial to switch the order of the components? Starting at the intercooler the coolant would flow through the heat exchanger and then back to the IC. If it's done in the stock order, the heat exchanger potentially heats the water up after leaving the ice cold reservoir before going to the IC. If the system is being revamped entirely anyways, I'd assume this would be the case.

Yes, I changed the routing on mine. Now it is Ice tank >> Pump >> IC >> HX >> Ice tank. I had the stock reservoir between the IC and HX only for visual confirmation of flow, but its coming out. I also intend to add full port ballvalves and a bypass, so I can bypass the HX completly when at the track, fully iced down, because the leaving IC water will end up still being colder than ambient temperatures.

 

[03cobra283]

I would be worried about feeding the pump at that point. visually the outlet of the tank (bottom of spare tire well) is probably about the same height as the stock pump. thats a long way to go to hope it feeds.

.

I am going to us the factory pump along with the rule one from Chiseled. I ordered one today, just gotta wait two weeks.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

I am going to us the factory pump along with the rule one from Chiseled. I ordered one today, just gotta wait two weeks.

i could be wrong, but i think the stock pump will be restricting the 25gpm rule pump and stressing it to an early failure.

 

[03cobra283]

yes...alot of guys now are going

from tank, to pump, to ic, to he, back to tank.

I might just take out the HE alltogether as its 90% a track car. maybe test it on the street and see what she does.

Let me know how it works with out the H/E on the street. Im still gonna keep mine for the time being, but any unneeded weight in the front is always nice to discard. Let me know what you find.

 

[03cobra283]

I thought the same thing too, but then when I think of the 25gpm pump beeing in the rear of the car and pushing the water to through the IC then to the H/E that it would help get the water back to the trunk. I could be wrong, I just thought it may be needed. I guess it all really depends on the power of that 25gpm pump.