Something to think about...

[GoingHaam]

After having a random conversation with a friend he gave me something to think about....

It seem like car manufactures pull vehicle pricing for options out of ass a lot of the time. And Logically, somethings just don't make sense. here's just one example he uses.

"If a brand new V6 Camaro cost $23000 msrp, how does a z28 cost $75,000+

How can 3 complete brand new cars.... be less than buying one car of the same model?

Does 2 more cylinders, a few upgraded materials (visual and/or mechanical) and tuning warrant triple the price tag???

Reasoning: In the after market. if u upgrade your vehicle you have multiple sets of parts to show for your upgrades. and could possibly sell for profit... like stock part and upgraded part.."


Jokingly he says... if I buy a Z28, do i get all of the lesser quality parts that were taken off V6 that were upgraded.?



This got me to thinking... what others think about this, and how is this justified?

This is the case with lots of vehicles...

 

[R.D.P.]

z28's have a lot more going on than a few upgraded materials. They are still overpriced though.

 

[DHG1078]

Z/28's (and other high end model cars) have a lot more going on than base models. Their is a lot of extra designing/testing/certifications/tooling costs that have to be added on. These extra costs get spread out over a fewer number of vehicles. Plus any upgraded components often cost more whether its more costly to produce, takes more material, uses a more expensive material, etc. Any marketing costs need to be paid for. Car manufacturers calculate those costs down to the penny. Then they have to think about what kind of overhead costs they have, operational costs, labor costs for employees of all sectors of the business affected by the higher end model in addition to the shared costs with the lower models. 401K matching and health benefits aren't cheap to companies. Companies have to pay various fees just for being the kind of business they are. Add margins on top of that and you got an expensive car.

 

[thomas91169]

They have to amortize the costs of those inclusions and R&D over a smaller quantity of vehicles produced.

And easily the Z28 is 3x the vehicle as a base v6 is, simply put.

 

[GoingHaam]

to add more to debate....

how much would it cost to build it an equivalent or better car starting with a brand new base V6....

remember you will have other brand new parts that you can sell and recoup money spent....

it only cost so much money to build 500hp drivetrain and track course suspension... (yes, I know its a bit more complicated than that)

im sure most people here could figure out how to make any car get to 500hp and handle better for less than $50,000 on almost any car

for every upgraded part... there is a lesser part to sell.... (that cost the manufacture to produce and research, market etc... as well)

 

[Zemedici]

to add more to debate....

how much would it cost to build it an equivalent or better car starting with a brand new base V6....

remember you will have other brand new parts that you can sell and recoup money spent....

it only cost so much money to build 500hp drivetrain and track course suspension... (yes, I know its a bit more complicated than that)

im sure most people here could figure out how to make any car get to 500hp and handle better for less than $50,000 on almost any car

for every upgraded part... there is a lesser part to sell.... (that cost the manufacture to produce and research, market etc... as well)

this is a moot point. Its like the GT guys that do 'cobra clones'. Its almost always more expensive than buying the cobra outright, and you still have a fake cobra. It will NEVER be a cobra.

You've also got to account all the minor details. Lets use cobras because we are familiar with them.

Cobra's have specific

front bumper
back bumper
spoiler
3rd brake light
cluster
seats
engine as a whole
transmission
rear suspension
front suspension
fog lights
exhaust
list goes on and on

That being said, dealer markup/amv is a very common thing for special/new vehicles. Look at the dealer markup on hellcats or the new 50th anny cars.

You can make anything fast.

However, cheap, fast, reliable, pick two.

 

[DHG1078]

to add more to debate....

how much would it cost to build it an equivalent or better car starting with a brand new base V6....

remember you will have other brand new parts that you can sell and recoup money spent....

it only cost so much money to build 500hp drivetrain and track course suspension... (yes, I know its a bit more complicated than that)

im sure most people here could figure out how to make any car get to 500hp and handle better for less than $50,000 on almost any car

for every upgraded part... there is a lesser part to sell.... (that cost the manufacture to produce and research, market etc... as well)

Edit: I think I misread your post. To buy brand new parts and upgrade the V6 to be as fast/Faster than a higher model will almost always cost more money. You are paying retail prices on one new part versus the manufacturer paying cheaper bulk pricing.

 

[GoingHaam]

When they are designing and manufacturing new parts for new cars, they don't have other parts to sell. They don't take a V6 and take parts off of it... I think you have a misguided view on the manufacturing process.

This is my point exactly..... at the price of the upgrade u would think you get everything. but I know they start with empty shells and are not doing twice the work....


FYI everyone reading this thread: this was not a serious calculated conversation we were having..... but a bored out of our minds, shoot-the-shit "talk". im not a complete idiot::beer:



However Semi-Serious Question: is it possible to purchase a brand new car body? Never heard of anyone doing it. But im sure Im not the only person that has ever asked that question

 

[GoingHaam]

Edit: I think I misread your post. To buy brand new parts and upgrade the V6 to be as fast/Faster than a higher model will almost always cost more money. You are paying retail prices on one new part versus the manufacturer paying cheaper bulk pricing.

I guess this is a new post...but you could swap in a 500 hp v8 drivetrain and suspension for under 50 ADDITIONAL thousand dollars

 

[vortecd]

I thought the same thing when the chargers came out in the mid 2000's. 20k for a base, 30k for a hemi and 40k for an srt. The v6 drivetrain cost something so taking that money away the drivetrain of an srt costs more then the rest of the car

 

[GoingHaam]

this is a moot point. Its like the GT guys that do 'cobra clones'. Its almost always more expensive than buying the cobra outright, and you still have a fake cobra. It will NEVER be a cobra.

You've also got to account all the minor details. Lets use cobras because we are familiar with them.

Cobra's have specific

front bumper
back bumper
spoiler
3rd brake light
cluster
seats
engine as a whole
transmission
rear suspension
front suspension
fog lights
exhaust
list goes on and on

That being said, dealer markup/amv is a very common thing for special/new vehicles. Look at the dealer markup on hellcats or the new 50th anny cars.

You can make anything fast.

However, cheap, fast, reliable, pick two.

"now" I don't think "a lot" of people initially start off building a clone.... More often I think it once you go Mod crazy, and before you know it, its a clone! trust me lol

 

[GoingHaam]

I thought the same thing when the chargers came out in the mid 2000's. 20k for a base, 30k for a hemi and 40k for an srt. The v6 drivetrain cost something so taking that money away the drivetrain of an srt costs more then the rest of the car

including the V6 drivetrain that was in the base car to begin with......

when are prices like that..... the manufacture in essence is saying your upgrades cost more than the car.

 

[SonicDTR]

Dont forget you're basically spreading that 5yr/100k(or whatever it is) warranty cost over the price of the vehicle too.

If you calculated pure material cost of a vehicle, it would be quite minimal. But you have to factor in R&D, certification, labor, unions, warranty, and who knows what else. Are they still overpriced? Absolutely, but it is impossible for John Q. Public to know by how much.

 

[Mach1USMC]

to add more to debate....

how much would it cost to build it an equivalent or better car starting with a brand new base V6....

remember you will have other brand new parts that you can sell and recoup money spent....

it only cost so much money to build 500hp drivetrain and track course suspension... (yes, I know its a bit more complicated than that)

im sure most people here could figure out how to make any car get to 500hp and handle better for less than $50,000 on almost any car

for every upgraded part... there is a lesser part to sell.... (that cost the manufacture to produce and research, market etc... as well)

Ask yourself this - how many people are chomping at the bit to buy base model stuff? come on man!! You're talking pennies on the dollar at best. You couldn't even buy the suspension in the Z28 with ALL the $ you'd get from selling the bese model crap.

 

[thomas91169]

I guess this is a new post...but you could swap in a 500 hp v8 drivetrain and suspension for under 50 ADDITIONAL thousand dollars

It will never ride, perform, etc like OEM, nor will it retain full OEM warranty.

The farther from stock you go, the more issues you will have. You will have to do quite a bit of work to get 500hp out of a v6 camaro reliably, make it handle like a Z28, etc.

 

[Rct851]

The car is worth what somebody is willing to pay.
If you want to make an arguement that a $75k z/28 isn't (or is, whatever) worth 3x the price of a base camaro then you have to start by asking of the base camaro is actually worth $25k in its own right.

Probably even more important on the topic of how the vehicles are "valued" is how they are
Being paid for, On credit. dealers can charge a ton for these specialty cars because they know
Joe Schmoe making 55k a gets to feel like a baller walking in with a check given to his by his local credit union.

 

[Mach1USMC]

Now if you're building a car for a specific purpose I could see the potential - ie, a drag car. Buy all aftermarket stuff not OEM - that might make sense and you could definitely make it faster AT THE TRACK than a Z28. But as others have pointed out, you won't have a warranty, you won't have the "comfort" or overall performance of the OEM Z28. But you could make it faster if that's your only goal.

 

[DHG1078]

including the V6 drivetrain that was in the base car to begin with......

when are prices like that..... the manufacture in essence is saying your upgrades cost more than the car.

I think the added margins, in addition to reasons listed above, are also added because it provides an added value to the car on top of material costs.

I see it kind of like renovating your home. If you spend 20k on your kitchen, your home value can go up 30K. The renovations [improvements] are seen to add more than 20k in value to the house, plus the added benefit of it's already done and no changes need to be made.

 

[2000gt4.6]

The biggest factor, by far, is unit sales numbers.

The more of an item you sell, the cheaper it is per unit to produce.The more you can spread out the cost of the R@D, the more you can leverage your suppliers, the more you improve your production procedures(which then get cheaper) etc etc etc.

They sell a ton of V6 cars, fewer base V8s, and very few top end ones.

Add in paying the added for the added materials, less spread out R@D costs, and frankly paying more a more exclusive car, and you get the cost.

Just be thankful the v6 is there to lower the cost of the GT and GT500. Without the V6 it would be outrageous.

Imagine if someone asked you to quote them the price on a custom birdhouse. You have to plan it out, buy the materials, cut each board one at a time and put it together. You have 90 percent of a box of screws, half a tube of glue and 6' of 2x4 left over.

Now you quote the same birdhouse, but you're going to build 200 of them. You only dedign it once.You can use all your materials (or have fewer leftovers), cut the boards in huge lots, and pay neighborhood kids 25c an hour to screw them together....which is cheaper?

 

[kirks5oh]

To answer a couple questions::


Many companies offer a "body in white". Simply the frame of the car. That is what you'd want to buy if you wanted to build a z28. But as stated, NOTHING drives like an OEM stock car. Nothing.

The $76k for the z28 does not cover simply the materials. With a car like that, the car as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It's easy to make a list of things you need to build a car with 500+ hp, tons of suspension parts, great transmission, big brakes, huge wing, etc etc. and then the car is unbalanced and drives like shit. Part of paying that $75k involves paying for the R&D that goes into it.