SnakebiteTVS/5%lower/8rib/11.1:1 VS 2.9 whipple/20%lower/10 rib/9.5:1-Dyno comparison

[olaosunt]

________________________________________
From: Osuntokun, Olaniyi O
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 8:07 PM

Some of you may know I broke the crank of my 9.5:1 compression alluminator with ported heads/Ford racing exhaust cams running the Cobra jet 10 rib set up with a 2.9 Whipple.
I had MMR build me a new BOSS long block and was afraid of using the Whipple again.I was fortunate? to have been able to buy back my TVS that I had sold to forum member when I made the switch.
I sent the blower to Steigmeir for the snake bite drive(1.3),venom cooler case blueprint(not sure what that means) and he ported matched the inlet to the L&M elbow I had before.

I ran the Whipple with the new engine for the break-in period since the snake biye TVS was not ready and then switched
I initially had the 82 mm 8 rib pulley thinking I would see 17-18 psi based on my rpm calculations.I only saw 14-15 per my gauge.
I then started having problems with engine cover side of the belt shredding(may have been getting cut on the cover) so decided to go down a pulley-75 mm size since I was going to be doing a new belt after my Ford guy machined the cover some more

After that install he noticed belt was walking forward on the damper with high revs.I contacted VMP and he was great,quickly offering to send me the new design damper that has a lip.

Lund has been tuning the car since I had the Whipple and had reviewed my street logs on race gas.

I decided to go ahead and dyno the car on E85 while waiting on the damper.The Guys at Fathous who have been great noted it was dropping fuel pressure after 5500 rpm and that the boost dipped/belt slipped.
I have Lethal's return system with 2 Walbro pumps and it was previously enough to support 800 rwhp on the Whipple
Lund wanted the fuel system rerouted to a "true return system" and add a third pump.
I had them do a pull on race gas to see if it would be less lean but it still was,belt also started shredding.
I had fat house redo the fuel system and install the new damper and while they were at it they machined the cover some more and tried to get the alignment right.Also found the a return fuel line with 4 kinks which could have been the cause of the fuel problems but I agree with lund who said something like "overbuilt super safe".lol
Unfortunately after hours of labor and consultation with Justin(many thanks) that belt is still walking forward on the new damper.
I had them do one dyno pull at least to make sure the fuel issues were fixed.It is now running rich so
it looks like that is fixed.I will send logs to Lund and may be he will adjust the tune.
Unfortunately we may have run out ideas on how to fix the belt alignment(Justin already suggested and have moved the blower and manifold as far back as it can go)
We will try the 82 mm pulley since the problems started with the 75 mm but they are not optimistic that will fix it.
If that fails I will try a 6 rib belt and may end up with the 6 rib pulleys if that fails.
Not here to criticize anything/anyone as Justin and the guys at Fathouse have been great and spent many hours trying to fix this.
I still have my 2.9 whipple/10 rib set up and may just reuse it if I want more after maxing out the TVS-I may run a 69 mm pulley with the 1.3 drive if I go back to the 6 rib pulleys.
I know dyno graphs are for comparison and tuning purposes only but have only been able to run the car once to feel it out since the new engine with the TVS-It ran 10.93@136 so making enough power even with the 82 mm pulley.
The numbers for the the whipple were on a different dyno in February .The whipple is blue and the TVS red
Boost PSI was 17-18 with both of them.Only the last graph is SAE and I thought it was intersting they made identical power!

 

[hitmix300]

Things are looking up. Your build will be stable soon enough. Nice to hear an update man

 

[olaosunt]

Thanks man
Keep me updated on yours as well.

 

[Roushcornfed]

Very nice thanks for the update. If u went to a 69mm pulley on the 1.3 you would be spinning the tvs way beyond 22000rpm? Im looking at doing the same setup with 1.3 on the 6 rib with from steig on a 82mm pulley so find this interesting.

 

[olaosunt]

Ended up going back to the 82 mm 8 rib pulley with a 6 rib belt.Only way the belt stayed in place on the crank.( the 8 rib belt also walked)
we tried to run the 75 mm 8 rib pulley(effectively 72 with the 5% lower)with the 6 rib belt and slipped badly.
The numbers above were with an 8 rib belt on the 75 mm pulley.

.... So effectively I am now just running an 82(79 with the 5%) 8 rib pulley/ 6 rib belt Combo with the 1.3 drive with no slip.
It made good power-788 but less torque(730) than above.

Running a 75 mm(effective 72 mm )8 rib pulley/6 rib belt with the 1. 3 drive slipped badly.
An 8 rib belt worked with no slip ,made more torque (see first dyno)but was walking on the damper

 

[olaosunt]

Very nice thanks for the update. If u went to a 69mm pulley on the 1.3 you would be spinning the tvs way beyond 22000rpm? Im looking at doing the same setup with 1.3 on the 6 rib with from steig on a 82mm pulley so find this interesting.

Yes, would probably be too much and I am sure would slip badly with a 6 rib belt.
A 79mm 6 rib belt with the snake bite does not slip;A 72 mm 6 rib belt with the snake bite slips but does not slip with an 8 rib- belt

 

[olaosunt]

Ended up going back to the 82 mm 8 rib pulley with a 6 rib belt.Only way the belt stayed in place on the crank.( the 8 rib belt also walked)
we tried to run the 75 mm 8 rib pulley(effectively 72 with the 5% lower)with the 6 rib belt and slipped badly.
The numbers above were with an 8 rib belt on the 75 mm pulley.

.... So effectively I am now just running an 82(79 with the 5%) 8 rib pulley/ 6 rib belt Combo with the 1.3 drive with no slip.
It made good power-788 but less torque(730) than above.

Running a 75 mm(effective 72 mm )8 rib pulley/6 rib belt with the 1. 3 drive slipped badly.
An 8 rib belt worked with no slip ,made more torque (see first dyno)but was walking on the damper

Ran it last weekend in better weather.DA was about 1200 ft. 6 rib belt,82 mm pulley,5% OD and snake bite drive.
Tires were the ET pros drag slicks so still slipping the clutch-Drove 110 miles on them to the track and wanted to make sure I drove it home.Lol
Best time was 10.7@136

Then ran a heads up twice against a 2014/auto with a Roush charger-not sure what pulley he was running-Did not see his time but he told me he was running 10.8's.(I had 47 on the back of my car and 49 in front).Tires still spun quite a bit as I was eager to beat him after blowing our first run on the launch.ran 106 mph in the 1/8th on that run so may have a 140 mph trap in it as it tends to pick up 34 mph on the big end.

If I can launch harder, dump the clutch with a slick , get the 60 ft down to the 1.5 range and improve on my shifting it could run low 10's-doubt 9's.
VMP sent me a new upper FEAD bracket and spider to try and fix the 8 rib problems , so may be possible if I can run a 8 rib belt with the 75mm pulley.
Already bought a built auto and converter waiting to go in once I am satisfied I can't go any faster with this MT82.
Should run 9's and shooting for fastest TVS.
Overall I was happy since it was my second outing in the car since getting my engine put together.

 

[92fiveohfox]

Nice man, what did the other roush car run? You should be 9s with the auto.

 

[Scott8583]

Very nice!

102mph in the 1/8th is low for 136... 106 sounds more like it. I trap 103 & 130mph & run 10.70's to 10.60's.

What trans are you going to?

 

[olaosunt]

Nice man, what did the other roush car run? You should be 9s with the auto.

Thanks Boss
They were run grudge races so did not get to see his slip(you only get your half)
Kind of disappointed I don't have the driver mod to row this thing faster but glad I beat the auto although I suspect I am putting down a lot more power.lol

 

[olaosunt]

Very nice!

102mph in the 1/8th is low for 136... 106 sounds more like it. I trap 103 & 130mph & run 10.70's to 10.60's.

What trans are you going to?

Just bought a built 6r80 from forum member .
Complete swap including computer and 3b converter( not sure if that will work for my set up but will try)

 

[1NA RUN]

You will love the auto. I have a 2.9 whipple on mine and did the auto swap this year. I'm loving it! Good luck!

 

[mystickb1996]

Great info sir, thanks for sharing. Also that tvs is a beast I can't believe how much more torque it makes over the 2.9 whipple.. Any reason why the whipple is lacking so much tq?

 

[11Sec_Lx]

Hey Olaniyi. This is John, Ken's friend. We need to get together on a Wednesday night at Muncie. Ken has been running his car. Send me a pm for my contact info. It's good to hear that you are making progress on the car.

 

[grnenvy]

I maybe able to help if your still having belt run off. Belt alignment can be a huge PITA. The PDB setup has a couple possible points that can be giving you your problem. Don't take this the wrong way but are you sure you have the balancer and VMP ring all the way on the crank? The surface needs to be clean and free of any burs if not that will cause run out which will cause belt walk. All these parts aren't the same they have a little plus or minus when talking tolerances. The lower manifold has back and fourth movement. I don't tighten it up until I install the top idler. I tighten the top idler up first starting with the 2 bolts going to the head and timing cover first because its a fixed factory point that can't move around. Then I tighten the other 2 bolts going to the lower manifold and timing cover. Doing it this way puts the manifold in the right spot when tightening which then puts the blower in a better spot. Remember it only takes a little bit this way or that way to make the belt walk. If everything else is in good working order you should be good. If you think about what I'm telling you it will all make sense. Good luck

 

[Roushcornfed]

Yes, would probably be too much and I am sure would slip badly with a 6 rib belt.
A 79mm 6 rib belt with the snake bite does not slip;A 72 mm 6 rib belt with the snake bite slips but does not slip with an 8 rib- belt

Great info this really helps. Also its making nice power.

 

[olaosunt]

Great info sir, thanks for sharing. Also that tvs is a beast I can't believe how much more torque it makes over the 2.9 whipple.. Any reason why the whipple is lacking so much tq?

Thanks guys.
To be fair, the 2.9 Whipple runs were when I had the lower compression Alluminator/hand ported heads and the Ford racing exhaust cams-with longer duration.It made the same boost as I am making now with the TVS but I assume some of the difference in torque is due to the compression ratio.
I had the whipple on for a while on the new motor with higher compression but did not get back to the dyno(I was afraid it would break my crank again).

Grnenvy-thanks a lot for the advice!-Not the one doing the wrenching but both my Ford tech and the guys at Fathouse had the same issues.They guys at cathouse spent many hours=$$$$$ labour! trying to get it right and still did not succeed.
I will definitely ask Brad( my Ford tech usual does all my work )to look at those things again.Justin@VMP also thought my tensioner and spider bracket may be bent so I got some new ones from him.The Guys at Fathouse just fabricated me a new AC damper that now has a lip on the front but Justin did not think it would work as he thought it would just shred the belt faster if it was still not aligned.This 8 rib is becoming almost as expensive my misadventure with the 2.9 whipple/10 rib(may be not quite since I have not bought a new engine yet...).Still for sale!!
Once I do the auto swap and I am sure I have maxed out the TVS or can't get the 8 rib to work properly I may be brave enough to try the Whipple again(I figure it may be less stressful on the crank with the auto but I may be wrong... If I am somebody please tell me before I go break another engine!).

Jon-yeah which should.I rarely go to Muncie as I often come back on a flat bed and the cost of tow was getting to be a killer .lol

I did drive 100 miles to Morocco as I did not want to miss out of the great DA.....But also signed on to AAA that same day..just in case.
I was thrilled( as always) when I got to drove the car home even though I was launching with the ET pro(slipping the clutch)but I was half expecting to break my rear end.lol .

I went to the O'riley race way this week and drove there on my 29 inch Hoosier slicks hoping I could get my 60 ft down to the 1.5 range.I had run them previously but they did not 60 ft well so I switched the K springs in the back to stock to see if it would help(was having clearance issues with the tall slicks as well with the lower springs).
I made a couple of passes with the pressure in the slicks at 20 psi,full hard back and full soft front with the Tokikos-without much joy.

Ran another 10.8 @133 with an even worse 60 of 1.76.I think I was still slipping the clutch given that I have little experiencing with the slicks(I tried the ET streets before and never got better than a1.60 ,previous best with the old suspension on these was 1.80)

I decided to go for broke next run,dropped the pressure to 18,revved to 4000 rpm and side stepped the clutch.
Bam! And oops! Flat bed please!(The tow guys all know me by first name now.lol.Could have bought a trailer with all my tow costs by now!

Lightning does strike twice in the same place after all!
I was not sure whether to post this or not(at least till DSS lets me know what they want to do) but figure it may help someone else.
I have an old thread when I broke the first DSS CF drive shaft( It had separated at the yolk)and will post the link if I can find it.
In fairness to DSS they were great finally warrantying that one,and sending me another. They even let me have me an aluminum while the CF was being built.
Initially though they tried to say it was the heat from the headers that caused the failure on that one but after taking pictures and viewing the underside of the car with the aluminum shaft it was not even close the exhaust .
Anyway I put on my stock drive shaft for now,so no more racing,while they decide what they(DSS) want to do .When I spoke to them on friday they were also perplexed but I am hoping they are as good as they were the last time promptly sending a replacement.
I suspect they may want to blame my car.
I am definitely NOT doing another CF(may be IT IS my car, who knows) and hope they send a replacement aluminum with a cash refund due to the difference in cost!!
The funny thing though is the car seems more responsive with the stock drive shaft and definitely less noisy.

 

[Roushcornfed]

Wow. Thats crazy. Damn

 

[grnenvy]

Don't blame yourself about the DS. All these DS company's advertise like there the best thing in the world. They usually come apart where its glued to the aluminum joint? I had one I didn't trust it so I sold it. There is no way glue is stronger then weld.
Having a lip on the end won't keep the belt from walking off if something is out. Yes it will shred even faster Justin is right. I wish u lived near me I would help you out. I liked figuring things out like this. It has to be something stupid but not obvious.

 

[olaosunt]

Ran my PB tonight .It was cold, mid 50's so bet DA was great!
Best part was I drove it home!
10.3@138 with 1.61 60 foot .First time below 7 second in 1/8,
Still on the MT82
/snake bite/75 mm pulley/5% OD/ET pros.
Leaving at 4000 on the 2 step.
At 4500 the tires just spun.
Still trying to see if I can row this thing into the 9's.
Any advice. Lol
I started the night with a "7 rib" belt and ended with 6. Lol
Did not feel like the 6 rib was slipping but was not watching the boost gauge.
Going from a 5 % lower damper to 15% so I hope to pick up another 2 psi of boost ,from 18 to 20 and hopefully some MPH .Maybe trap 140.
I know I may be overspining the TVS. I don't care-if it packs up I have the 2.9 whipple(can't sell it anyway) I can use with the 8 rib.Heck I may even do the 69 mm/15 % and get 22psi (The TVS I had on my GT500 made 22 psi with a 2.4 lower and 10 @ OD) with an ice box.lol

If I can get it to go 1.5xx 60ft with 140 mph trap that may get me a 9 sec slip.
If I get there I may leave the manual in it( I already bought a complete 6r80 swap including 3C Circle D converter and may resell it lol )
A friend took video of both runs I will post later.