Pumps and Tanks

[K2AHollywood]

So fuel pump looks like it is on the way out and Im trying to do some planning ahead to make this a one time job/making my dollar go father. First let me apologize, I know across the threads these have all been covered in various way but I got tired of hunting so I made a new post, please dont get upset.

Anyway I think the best option so far is the 03/04 tank with the stock twin pumps. I am looking to upgrade as I will be feeding a KB, stock motor so conservative HP ~450ish. Yes I am aware the stock pump and the BAP I have is more than enough. But I am also thinking future and I would like to be able to support more HP in the future. Hence the reason for this post, I dont really want to replace my current pump with the same one knowing that once I hit about 500hp I will need a new pump. I could go GT pump and have plenty to go but from everything I have read the fabrication work is a pain and requires a special tune to get the car even going with it. Finally I was thinking the new tank due to the better design and the twin pump would be more than enough, but dont know what additional hardware is needed.

So basically I need install/parts information for all those options or if anyone has found a great place to buy any of these parts, I know a while back someone posted very reasonable 03/04 tanks but I cant seem to find the thread now. Also all opinions on this matter are welcome. I a, just trying to get all my ducks in a row so as this becomes a necessity I already know what I am going to do and which parts I need.

 

[droptopsnake01]

03/04 tank and ford gt pumps. (Tousely Ford) on here can get you them.

You will need a tune with the new pumps, but like you said you will be set for 600+rwhp then.

 

[01yellercobra]

Don't forget the upgraded FPDM to go with the GT pumps.

 

[droptopsnake01]

Don't forget the upgraded FPDM to go with the GT pumps.

You can do that, just know its not needed. IMO

 

[matt87]

late model resto has the 03/04 tank and pumps for 650.00. best price i've seen.

 

[droptopsnake01]

late model resto has the 03/04 tank and pumps for 650.00. best price i've seen.

thats a damn steal.

If thats true you better buy it tomorrow.

 

[K2AHollywood]

So I have more then enough room with the twin stock 03/04 pumps for now correct? Then if I want to increse that I can drop in the duel GTs and retune at that point, will the twins require a retune as well to run properly. And droptop why do I/or dont I need the upgraded FPDM?

 

[droptopsnake01]

So I have more then enough room with the twin stock 03/04 pumps for now correct? Then if I want to increse that I can drop in the duel GTs and retune at that point, will the twins require a retune as well to run properly. And droptop why do I/or dont I need the upgraded FPDM?

Stock cobra tank and pumps will be fine. When and if you do drop in the GT pumps it will need a retune.

Look at it like this, your motor is telling your stock 03/04 cobra pumps to put in "this amount of fuel in your motor" well with your GT pumps its telling them the same thing but those pumps pump more fuel so thats why you will need a tune. (Trying to explain it in a easy way)

Your stock FPDM is stock and made to only work 1 fuel pump. So when you put in two pumps (stock 03 pumps) or (GT pumps) running a stock FPDM could cause a thermal shutdown do to it "working harder" to drive 2 pumps to keep up. A modified pump would "fix" this from possibly happening.

I never had a modified FPDM on my car when I was supercharged, not saying I shouldn't or should have, but I drove my car as a DD for a year then alot for another year with a stock FPDM and I had no problems.

Im not saying to a bad idea, im just saying I don't think its needed, but its not a bad idea either.

 

[K2AHollywood]

^got it! makes perfect sense. Thanks!

 

[droptopsnake01]

^got it! makes perfect sense. Thanks!

cool

p.s. you can also get a modified gt500 FPDM they have a FPDM for each pump (2)

 

[01yellercobra]

I was looking into the dual FPDM set up, but you either have to run the Fore hat or drill into the stock hat. At least that's what Lethal told me.

I've heard of people getting away with the stock FPDM and GT pumps at lower power levels. Maybe it depends on how hard the pumps are running? Did you have the wiring upgrade done as well?

 

[1badblownstang]

Stock cobra tank and pumps will be fine. When and if you do drop in the GT pumps it will need a retune.

Look at it like this, your motor is telling your stock 03/04 cobra pumps to put in "this amount of fuel in your motor" well with your GT pumps its telling them the same thing but those pumps pump more fuel so thats why you will need a tune. (Trying to explain it in a easy way)

Your stock FPDM is stock and made to only work 1 fuel pump. So when you put in two pumps (stock 03 pumps) or (GT pumps) running a stock FPDM could cause a thermal shutdown do to it "working harder" to drive 2 pumps to keep up. A modified pump would "fix" this from possibly happening.

I never had a modified FPDM on my car when I was supercharged, not saying I shouldn't or should have, but I drove my car as a DD for a year then alot for another year with a stock FPDM and I had no problems.

Im not saying to a bad idea, im just saying I don't think its needed, but its not a bad idea either.

Droptop, I think you have probably forgotten more than I know about these cars but i think your a little off in two areas.

1. The returnless fuel system works off a reading from the fuel pressure sensor on the rail, it tells the pumps to increase or decrease voltage while reading pressure at the rail and load demand in the ecu/engine sensors. It does not care which pumps are in the tank, it simply reads pressure, so the GT pumps will simply be told to increase less to keep up. I do not think a retune is needed.

2. The FPDM can overheat and go into thermal shut down ,this is true, but i believe the gt pumps actually will have an easier time keeping up, requiring less voltage, hence actually run cooler than stock pumps at he same given fuel demand. I beleive these pumps might easier on the FPDM. It's when pumps are pushed past 80% duty cycle that they being to heat saturate themselves and the fpdm.

I went from an 01 tank with a single pump to an 03 tank with twin focus pumps and did not need a retune. My ecu/fp sensor simply saw it took less voltage to keep the required pressure and adapted. My car ran out of pump on the dyno with a 150 shot. I added the tank/pumps/fpdm and re-dynoed it and it was keeping up fine. John said he added a little timing back in up top but the fuel tables needed no adjustment, the fp duty cycle dropped, I took that to mean the ecu adapted.

I am completly open to being corrected here if i am wrong. I did a bunch of research into this when i was getting my tank, twin focus pumps and upgraded FPDM. Number 1 I am pretty sure about, number 2 is more a theory.

 

[concept11253]

Droptop, I think you have probably forgotten more than I know about these cars but i think your a little off in two areas.

1. The returnless fuel system works off a reading from the fuel pressure sensor on the rail, it tells the pumps to increase or decrease voltage while reading pressure at the rail and load demand in the ecu/engine sensors. It does not care which pumps are in the tank, it simply reads pressure, so the GT pumps will simply be told to increase less to keep up. I do not think a retune is needed.

2. The FPDM can overheat and go into thermal shut down ,this is true, but i believe the gt pumps actually will have an easier time keeping up, requiring less voltage, hence actually run cooler than stock pumps at he same given fuel demand. I beleive these pumps might easier on the FPDM. It's when pumps are pushed past 80% duty cycle that they being to heat saturate themselves and the fpdm.

I went from an 01 tank with a single pump to an 03 tank with twin focus pumps and did not need a retune. My ecu/fp sensor simply saw it took less voltage to keep the required pressure and adapted. My car ran out of pump on the dyno with a 150 shot. I added the tank/pumps/fpdm and re-dynoed it and it was keeping up fine. John said he added a little timing back in up top but the fuel tables needed no adjustment, the fp duty cycle dropped, I took that to mean the ecu adapted.

I am completly open to being corrected here if i am wrong. I did a bunch of research into this when i was getting my tank, twin focus pumps and upgraded FPDM. Number 1 I am pretty sure about, number 2 is more a theory.

Correct. The Ford GT pumps will drop your duty cycle down which will allow you to feed more fuel to your rail before maxing the pumps. Modified / Upgraded FPDM is probably a good idea to prevent the thermal shutdown which could end badly at WOT.

 

[cobraracer46]

Think twice before "upgrading" to a set of Focus pumps!:burn:

KENNE BELL BOOST-A-PUMP / COBRA vs FOCUS vs WALBRO FUEL PUMP TESTS
and a Few Discussions About Injectors and the HP They Support
Normally we don’t comment in detail on subjects unless our products are misunderstood or being
bashed. We’ve fielded way too many calls, emails and posts wherein Kenne Bell customers are
criticized for or discouraged from using our Boost-A-Pump. Well, it’s time we set the record
straight.
So you believe that replacing your dual 119 lph Cobra pumps (238 lph total) with dual SVT
Focus 143 lph pumps (286 lph total) is the answer? Really? Kenne Bell flow bench tests indicate
the Focus pumps offer a mere 20% flow increase over the stock Cobra pumps! All pump
“ratings” herein are based on 80 psi unless otherwise specified.
And you’ve been told by the “experts” that the dual Cobra pumps with the Kenne Bell Boost-APump
that we supply to hundreds of our ‘03 Cobra kit owners, as part of the kit, will not support
high HP levels and you should install larger pumps and forget the Boost-A-Pump. Let’s take a
look at the real flow bench “facts”. Our in-house tests clearly show the Boost-A-Pump, with the
stock Cobra pumps flows a whopping 378 lph or almost 60% more fuel - 3 times the flow
increased by the Focus pumps without the BAP: 286 - 238 = 48 vs 378 - 238 = 140 more lph!
There are quite a few Cobra owners who purchased the Focus pumps or are thinking about
‘converting”, that are sure to ask these questions:
Q: Can I use the Boost-A-Pump with my Focus pumps so I can match or exceed the stock Cobra
/ BAP combination?
A: No. Not, unless you remove the stock fuse completely (bypass it) and install a larger fuse
holder that can house a 40 AMP fuse. The stock fusebox houses a 30 AMP (maximum that we
know of) mini-fuse for the pumps and cannot accommodate a fuse big enough to handle the
added current draw from the dual Focus pumps. Next, you better look at the wiring size from the
fuse center to the FPDM to make sure the wire is sized correctly to handle 40 AMPS.
Q: How high pressure can I run the Focus pumps at to get the maximum delta pressure required
to make the high HP?
A: The Focus pumps “blow off” at 85 psi (remember delta injector operating pressure + boost =
rail pressure). Don’t forget - there is a 10 psi loss from the output of the pump to the injector, so
use 75 psi as your max for figuring max delta vs. boost. The Focus pumps cannot flow any more
fuel at higher pressures. The stock Cobra pumps do not incorporate internal “blow off” valves,
and can be run at higher pressure than the Focus pumps.
Q: How large an injector then, can the two systems (Focus / no BAP vs Stock / with BAP
support?
A: Let’s do the math: Two Focus pumps at 143 lph = 286 lph = 417 lbs of fuel / 8 cyl = 59 lb
(actual flow) injectors. That’s IF 100% of the fuel discharged from the pumps gets to the
injectors. Keep in mind that the Focus pumps are only 20% larger than stock, but the HP increase
we’re talking about is up to 100% higher than stock.
Now, let’s talk two Cobra / BAP combination pumps at 189 lph = 378 lph = 627 lbs of fuel / 8
cyl = 78 lb (actual flow) injectors. Obviously, the Boost-A-Pump has a comfortable safety
margin that can compensate for line and rail losses or pressure fluctuations, a partially clogged
fuel filter and equally important; voltage losses and / or fluctuations. Remember, the BAP is also
a voltage regulator. And finally, the Cobra / BAP combination has already been tested with 63 lb
injectors up to 700+ rwhp (814 ehp), with room to spare.
Q: Are there any other issues will I run into when installing the Focus pumps?
A: We found several other issues.
THE OBVIOUS
Dropping the tank is no picnic. Better have the right fuel line disconnect tools, start out with a
totally empty tank, and / or wear a splash proof / fire proof suit. When removing the fuel pump
assembly, be VERY careful when pulling the assembly out, otherwise you’ll break off a little
piece of the fuel level sending resistor, and the level will never read correctly again.
ELECTRICAL HOOKUP
The electrical connectors are different between the two pump types. This means the Focus pump
connectors have to be “adapted” to the old pump wiring harness. This is not “plug-and-play”.
Plan on spending some serious time cutting the old harness off and soldering (yes soldering)
connections that will then be submerged in your fuel tank. Whoever is doing this better do them
“like factory”. Who would want soldered connections floating around their fuel tank?.
FUEL LINE HOOKUP
Again, the pumps connect to the outgoing fuel lines differently. To “adapt” the Focus pumps, the
factory hoses must have the “ear clamps” cut off, then you better have the new correct size “ear
clamps” to reattach these onto the Focus pumps, or you’ll end up pinching the hoses with some
sort of scary screw-type clamp (make sure it’s all stainless, and the right size - doesn’t sound too
reliable, does it?).
PLUG AND PLAY?
We have seen some “Plug and Play” Focus setups for around $325 plus a core charge of $300 for
your stock pumps - oops, hope you don’t want to ever put the stock one’s back in, otherwise,
that’s $625 plus shipping. Next add labor costs to do all this. The Boost-A-Pump is included in
our kit at $0 extra charge, only takes about 1 to 1-1/2 hrs to install, and when used with the stock
Cobra pumps, far outflows the Focus pumps.
Q: Are there any factory issues with Focus pumps?
A: You might want to check out this link. “... as of 09 September 2002, 18 crashes and 4 injuries
have been attributed to the failed fuel pumps after the vehicle's engine failed to due a lack of fuel.
The defective fuel pumps fail without notice.”
http://www.blueovalnews.com/2003/cars/focus.fuelpump03n01.htm
Still want to go the Focus pump way?
Or better yet, as some suggest, you should spend thousands of dollars to convert to a “dual return
system” with 2 of the largest Walbro GSS342 / 255 lph pumps. But 2 of these pumps only flow
316 lph at 80 psi (same pressure tested rating as all the above), or 20% less than the Kenne Bell
BAP / Cobra pump combo. Oops! That would be a big waste of money while creating some
serious tuning and driveabilty problems. We tested the pressure drop in the fuel system right out
of the tank and at the beginning and end of the fuel rail at 700 rwhp and there was a 7 psi loss in
the filter / fuel line and 3 psi loss in the rail. Replacing the stock fuel line with a 3/8" will drop
the filter / fuel line loss to about 2 psi. We tested the Cobra fuel filter at 203 lph flow at 80 psi in
and it only dropped ½ psi out, so a clean filter isn’t the restriction, the fuel line is. We’ll be
posting some more useful information soon on fuel line sizing in a future thread.
Now that we’ve published all the pump flow numbers (see charts below) and you get a chance to
review them, we think you’ll agree: “Is it a really a good idea to replace the 378 lph Kenne Bell
Boost-A-Pump / Cobra stock pump combo with the 286 lph Focus dual pumps (less the Boost-APump)”?
Or, how about a high dollar 316 lph dual Walbro pump setup with a return line, or
Aeromotive 273 lph? Compare the above scenarios to the easy installation of a Boost-A-Pump.
Cut into one FPDM wire hook up to “input” and “output”, connect the ground, and run the
pressure switch to a boost source. That’s it.
Here’s a quick summary of the pump tests:
Kenne Bell BAP/Stock Pump Combo............. 378 lph
Dual Walbros (no BAP)................................... 316 lph
Dual Focus (SVT, no BAP)............................. 286 lph
Stock Cobra..................................................... 238 lph
Never overlook voltage variations. 1 Volt is 10% fuel capacity. The Boost-A-Pump is also a
voltage regulator and therefore compensates for voltage fluctuations in your electrical system.
And, contrary to the opinions of some, the BAP will actually INCREASE the life of the pumps
because they do not have to work as hard with the increased voltage and amperage supplied by
the BAP (see our post at [ame=http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7819]Boost-a-pump Theory Explained - ModularFords.com[/ame] - LOOK
AT THE CHARTS). Note how much LESS duty cycle is imposed on the pump when the BAP is
used? LESS DUTY CYCLE = LONGER PUMP LIFE.
Also, look for two great references on our website covering pertinent formulas, technical
information and the Boost-A-Pump:

 

[1badblownstang]

if your going to cut and paste and least take the time to put in some spaces to make the shit readable.

FYI, I bought my setup with focus pumps, I never said anything about him getting them. On top of that we are talking about the SVT focus pumps, not normal focus pumps, which is what Ford had the problem with. I don't think copying the KB BAP FAQ is unbias when it comes to picking a fuel pump.

The BAP is a band aid for a fuel system not sized correctly for a given fuel demand.

 

[cobraracer46]

The BAP is a band aid for a fuel system not sized correctly for a given fuel demand.

I would much rather have a supplementary add on fuel pump controller on my car instead of cutting and hacking up expensive fuel system parts( the 03-04 Cobra fuel pump assembly from your local Ford dealer is now priced at over $1000) or worse, wasting a bunch of time and money by converting to a "return" fuel system.:bored::fart:

 

[K2AHollywood]

I would much rather have a supplementary add on fuel pump controller on my car instead of cutting and hacking up expensive fuel system parts( the 03-04 Cobra fuel pump assembly from your local Ford dealer is now priced at over $1000) or worse, wasting a bunch of time and money by converting to a "return" fuel system.:bored::fart:

wow thats quite the blanket statement. Dude did you even read this thread before you popped your ass in here? Oh and BTW next time a link will do just fine to serve your purpose

 

[matt87]

op:

 

[Can'tCatchMe]

Badblownstang is correct. You do not need a retune just because you put in different pumps. It will only lower the duty cycle on the fuel pumps. The only reason you would need a retune is if you upgraded to bigger injectors. On your current setup the injectors are still going to fire at the exact same rate they are now and put the exact same amount of fuel in the cylinder. The injectors do not have a clue what pumps you are running. Your fuel pressure is still going to stay the same no matter what pumps you are running.

 

[1badblownstang]

I would much rather have a supplementary add on fuel pump controller on my car instead of cutting and hacking up expensive fuel system parts( the 03-04 Cobra fuel pump assembly from your local Ford dealer is now priced at over $1000) or worse, wasting a bunch of time and money by converting to a "return" fuel system.:bored::fart:

I am trying to be nice here so let me say this. I understand your first statement and I agree it would much cheaper and easier to install a BAP IF you were going to buy the pumps and/or assembly at full price from a local dealership.

That being said, nobody i know buys parts (except small ones) from thier local stealership when you can get the same part from tousley for 10% over cost. Or even better do like most of us and just hunt the classified section of a few boards and get the stuff you need dirt cheap.

Now onto converting to a return system. You ask 99% of people on these modular boards, whos cars have gone from 300-400 into and beyond the 600+ hp range and they will say that going return was the best move they made. Just about everyone i have seen feedback from said the same thing "tuning was so much easier". So depending on HP level, going return may not be a waste at all, and it does not have to cost that much either. I picked up and brand new in the box Barry Grant King Sumo fuel pump and reg for 300.00 on the Corral. A1000 go for 200-250 all the time.

I agree that up to a given Hp level there is plenty you can do with the returnless system, I beleive one of the guys on here actually has around 700rwhp and is still returnless and on the stock rails. So, yes it can be done.

I know plenty of people that have BAP's and it works great for thier application. I prefer to install the right size system so I do not need booster pumps for my fuel system.

You have your opinion and I have mine, but, the OP asked a pretty specific question and I was just trying to save him a little money because I did not think some of items mentioned were needed.

OP, sorry for the sidetrack.