Project: Black Widow Motor Build

[gimlach94]

After months and months of research and talking with some very reliable engine builders, I am coming closer to beginning my turbo motor build. Through out the course of this thread you will find detailed pics, questions, and also witness what it takes precisely step by step to building a stout mod motor. Keep in mind I am still learning valuable things everyday however after seeing and hearing about one too many bad experiences with from a shop I am taking the "trust nobody" approach. I aim for precision and perfection throughout the course of this project...NOT SPEED and how fast I can have a motor in my car.

So far my motor consists of the following (All of which is brand new):

• 05-10 3v/Aluminator Block
• 03-04 Cobra Kellogg Crank (Stock Stroke)
• Oliver Billet I-Beam Rods w/ ARP 2000 Rod Bolts (5.933')
• Melling Billet Geared Oil Pump
• Canton Street/Strip T Pan (CAN15-780)
• Canton Windage Tray (CAN-20939)
• Roush Revised 9 Thread 05 DC Castings (Heads were Fully Loaded with OEM valves, springs, followers, and cams)
• Ferrea Comp Plus Intake Valves
• Brian Tooley .525 Modular Valve Springs
• Cloyes Hex-A-Just Primary Gears (9-3169A)
• Cloyes Billet Steel Secondary Gears (9-3676X9)
• ARP 12mm Cam Bolts

I still need to get my custom pistons from JE. I was fortunate enough to source BlownBlu97's Spec Sheet from him. I also need to get ARP Mainstuds, sidebolts, and headstuds.

Next on my agenda is measuring my bores (although it is brand new) so I can call JE and order my pistons. Keep in mind I am aiming for as close to stock bore as I can get. The block will need minimal machining more or less a touch hone of ~.002 to clean up the cylinder walls from sitting for so long. I will post pics of what it looks like. Pistons will be ordered .002 larger than my largest bore measurement.

Also to clarify so there is no confusion I got a once in a lifetime deal on a Ford Racing Aluminator shortblock, so if you see pics of me disassembling a brand new short block don't be alarmed lol. Lots of upgrading to be done in order to have a solid foundation for the turbo and the power I want to make (1000 on c16 through an auto)

Pics:

Here are some pics of the main areas I noticed need to be deburred. If anyone else wants to chime in and suggest other areas that I should duburr feel free! Basically anywhere I can draw blood will be gone. The last thing I need is some sort of casting slag/imperfection flaking off into my motor.

Stock Pistons and Rods are Removed leaving me a bare block and crank.

Main Caps Removed:

Crank Removed:

If I remember correctly, rod journals 1-8 all measured at 2.087"

Stay Tuned guys!

 

[oldmodman]

Personally, there is nothing I would change since you said this will be a turbo engine with no added stress from a blower being put on the crank snout.

I got the same Roush heads you did and when I pull them apart I will be replacing the stock factory iron guides with silicon bronze guides and polishing the combustion chambers.

And I am saving up for the same Oliver rods that you went with. And I spent a couple of days with a very fine cartridge roll going over the inside of my Texsid block. I relieved every sharp corner and casting grunge.

What compression did you decide to go with?

 

[ugotbit03]

Personally, there is nothing I would change since you said this will be a turbo engine with no added stress from a blower being put on the crank snout.

I got the same Roush heads you did and when I pull them apart I will be replacing the stock factory iron guides with silicon bronze guides and polishing the combustion chambers.

And I am saving up for the same Oliver rods that you went with. And I spent a couple of days with a very fine cartridge roll going over the inside of my Texsid block. I relieved every sharp corner and casting grunge.

What compression did you decide to go with?

Sort of related hi-jack- care to post pics of your block where you deburred/cleaned up?

 

[gimlach94]

Personally, there is nothing I would change since you said this will be a turbo engine with no added stress from a blower being put on the crank snout.

I got the same Roush heads you did and when I pull them apart I will be replacing the stock factory iron guides with silicon bronze guides and polishing the combustion chambers.

And I am saving up for the same Oliver rods that you went with. And I spent a couple of days with a very fine cartridge roll going over the inside of my Texsid block. I relieved every sharp corner and casting grunge.

What compression did you decide to go with?

Theres still many undecided variables in my build at this time Im about 99% sure Im going turbo, with the next biggest question being big single, or 2 twins. Although my crank wont see the added stress from a twin screw I still think I am going the extra mile and going to get the crank snout tapped for the bigger bolt upgrade. Is this necessary? Chances are no especially with the turbos, however its just one of those simple things that will make me sleep better at night. All the little attention to detail factors will not be overlooked when I build this motor.

How did you deburr your block and where were some of the areas you focused on?

As far as compression, Im thinking 9.5-10:1. Somewhere right in that ballpark. I feel Like if I can safely take advantage of it to help me spool that much quicker, why not? The car will be backed by a auto and of course and ball bearing, billet wheel turbos. Still doing some research on .ar ratios along with race covers and laying all my options on the table so I can appropriately select.

 

[gimlach94]

Bump

 

[MTBSully]

badass. Keep us updated.

 

[tnuce10]

Personally, there is nothing I would change since you said this will be a turbo engine with no added stress from a blower being put on the crank snout.

I got the same Roush heads you did and when I pull them apart I will be replacing the stock factory iron guides with silicon bronze guides and polishing the combustion chambers.

And I am saving up for the same Oliver rods that you went with. And I spent a couple of days with a very fine cartridge roll going over the inside of my Texsid block. I relieved every sharp corner and casting grunge.

What compression did you decide to go with?

I have a set of these heads as well and am getting ready to drop my shortblock off at Livernois.

I'm curious...why are you replacing the valve guides immediately?

 

[PWORLDSTANG]

I have a set of these heads as well and am getting ready to drop my shortblock off at Livernois.

I'm curious...why are you replacing the valve guides immediately?

Let us know if Livernois can further port these heads with their own port. I called and spoke to them about it and they said they would have to see the heads and inspect the port job, then port them with their program if possible.

 

[tnuce10]

Let us know if Livernois can further port these heads with their own port. I called and spoke to them about it and they said they would have to see the heads and inspect the port job, then port them with their program if possible.

I will talk to them about it and let you guys know. Like I said, it will be a few weeks though.

 

[PWORLDSTANG]

I will talk to them about it and let you guys know. Like I said, it will be a few weeks though.

I misread your post. Not to thread Hi-Jack as this is relevant to the heads.. Are you having Livernois work over the Roush ported heads with their port, or are you just having them build your shortblock?

 

[tnuce10]

I misread your post. Not to thread Hi-Jack as this is relevant to the heads.. Are you having Livernois work over the Roush ported heads with their port, or are you just having them build your shortblock?

I'm not 100% sure yet. I want to do as little as possible to the heads to try to keep my cost down. That is why I asked about the bronze valve guides in this thread originally.

My goal is to be a budget minded as possible, but still end up with a stout motor.

What's your thoughts on the guides?

 

[PWORLDSTANG]

I'm not 100% sure yet. I want to do as little as possible to the heads to try to keep my cost down. That is why I asked about the bronze valve guides in this thread originally.

My goal is to be a budget minded as possible, but still end up with a stout motor.

What's your thoughts on the guides?

Ah ok. The small stuff adds up quickly so I can't blame you there.

I have mixed feeling about bronze valve guides vs stock, as of recently. Over the years I've seen quite a few local cars wear their stock guides out prematurely. Likewise, from reading on here and over on modularfords over the years, I've read of quite a few people also wearing out bronze valve guides prematurely. In some instances stock guides appear to last longer, and in other instances bronze appears to be the winner while offering better heat dissipating properties.

If it were my motor, I'd stick bronze guides in it and be done with it.

 

[tnuce10]

Ah ok. The small stuff adds up quickly so I can't blame you there.

I have mixed feeling about bronze valve guides vs stock, as of recently. Over the years I've seen quite a few local cars wear their stock guides out prematurely. Likewise, from reading on here and over on modularfords over the years, I've read of quite a few people also wearing out bronze valve guides prematurely. In some instances stock guides appear to last longer, and in other instances bronze appears to be the winner while offering better heat dissipating properties.

If it were my motor, I'd stick bronze guides in it and be done with it.

I'm tossed up as well. On one hand, I want to go with bronze and be set. On the other hand, these revised head are supposed to be updated to get rid of the good ole tick. Meaning, the guides should be better, correct? I don't drive my car a ton...it's a weekend toy, so overall longevity shouldn't be a big issue for me.

I kind of want to run the idea past Livernois, but judging by a few conversations on the phone they are just going to try to upsell new guides so they can do some more labor.

 

[PWORLDSTANG]

I'm tossed up as well. On one hand, I want to go with bronze and be set. On the other hand, these revised head are supposed to be updated to get rid of the good ole tick. Meaning, the guides should be better, correct? I don't drive my car a ton...it's a weekend toy, so overall longevity shouldn't be a big issue for me.

I kind of want to run the idea past Livernois, but judging by a few conversations on the phone they are just going to try to upsell new guides so they can do some more labor.

It's my understanding that the revisions on these heads, and all revised heads were nine threaded plugs and revised cooling passages. I don't believe any of the hardware was revised or changed to be made any better than any of the earlier head castings. With that being said, the guides on these heads should be the same as on any early, late, or revised casting heads.

I don't think leaving the stock guides in is a bad idea at all.

With respect to you wanting to keep your cost down, my suggestion to you would be this: If you end up having Livernois further port these heads with their CNC program, replace the guides with bronze. Otherwise, If you plan on running these heads with the CNC Roush port as they sit, the stock guides will be fine. These heads were an incredible value for what they cost and unless you want more aggressive cams or a port job that outflows these heads, there's no need to do anything else if you want to keep cost down.

 

[tnuce10]

It's my understanding that the revisions on these heads, and all revised heads were nine threaded plugs and revised cooling passages. I don't believe any of the hardware was revised or changed to be made any better than any of the earlier head castings. With that being said, the guides on these heads should be the same as on any early, late, or revised casting heads.

I don't think leaving the stock guides in is a bad idea at all.

With respect to you wanting to keep your cost down, my suggestion to you would be this: If you end up having Livernois further port these heads with their CNC program, replace the guides with bronze. Otherwise, If you plan on running these heads with the CNC Roush port as they sit, the stock guides will be fine. These heads were an incredible value for what they cost and unless you want more aggressive cams or a port job that outflows these heads, there's no need to do anything else if you want to keep cost down.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking, except you worded it MUCH better.

 

[gimlach94]

Tnuce10: I was recently in a similar situation as you are in now. I was on the fence between getting my old 9 thread heads ported by livernois or picking up these fully loaded roush heads. So I get on the phone with livernois prior to getting these roush heads and ask for a quote to port my heads. They come back at me with a price of $2200 with me providing cores.....All I wanted done was strictly their CNC work. Nothing more. So this quote of $2200 didn't match up with the quote of $1300 I received a month earlier from one of their cylinder head/CNC Techs. Turns out in the quote of $2200 the guy was including gt500 followers and their livernois "exclusive" springs...which I'm not sure if you know this but are junk. I've seen multiple failures with their springs. My plan was to have their CNC work done, and build the rest of the heads using ferrea stainless valves, Brian tooley .525 lift springs, stock retainers, keepers, and new viton valve seals. At this point on the phone after they didn't want to tailor the quote per my requests I flat out told the guy this is a money thing. I don't have thousand after thousand to be throwing around here. I'm getting a set of roush heads that are brand new & fully loaded for less than you want for your "stage 2 custom" package. How much am I looking at to swap the oem valves to my stainless ferrea's (I had already purchased offline and had in my possession) I was then quoted $800 to swap and lap the valves. Upon some rurther research on valve lapping it can be done at home for $20 or less. All you need is some time, valve lapping tool, and some lapping compound, and all it is doing is getting the valve to seat in respect to the valve job. So after being told bs after bs at livernois I have proceeded to get the roush heads. Swap springs and lap the valves and couldn't be any happier with the path I took. If I were you leave your heads the way they are. You shouldn't have got the roush heads only if your plans were to get them re done by livernois. This once again for you is a cost thing. That is about the most uncostly thing you could do is buy the roush heads only for them to be torn down and cnc'd once again when they already are. Let's face it yeah the livernois CNC is going to out flow the roush CNC by about 20-25 cfm. Nice gain but not worth $2200 whatso ever. Or even $1300 if they acknowledge that price quote for CNC ONLY. You probably aren't building a all out x275 or race motor here and your power to cost gains are going to be deep in the negative (talking $'s) because you already have some stout heads that flow substantially better than the stock heads. If I were you id keep them the way they are. Swap springs, put some nice cams in there and rock and roll. Not sure if your turbo or not but stainless valves are nice on the exhaust side because they are able to withstand the aggressive heat. If those are in the budget look into some Manley or ferrea's. I went stainless on the intake and exhaust side. Not really needed per say but just one of those things that will make me sleep better at night.

I know you were also talking about swapping valve guides and going to bronze. I don't think this is a good idea at all because once again your a street car. Livernois will tell you this too unless your a race car and your motor sees limited street duty stay away from the bronze guides. You have new oem guides that will work great. There's been many debates on which guides are better and last longer.

Ed from modular fords told me this:

"Bronze guides have been a mainstay for performance engines for decades, Grant. Virtually every race only head comes from its manufacturer with bronze guides. For a street application bronze guides do not wear as well as cast iron guides but still give good results until they begin to wear. In general cast iron guides give better results on the street. In recent years there has been a growing contingent of users that believe the cast iron guide is a superior guide even for race environments. Cast iron, because of its porosity can actually absorb oil which helps to lubricate the stem and guide in service. The better lubricating qualities of cast iron would persuade me to use them for a street or street /race track engine. For a race only drag car that is brought to and from the track in a trailer I would use bronze guides. For a road race engine I would use cast iron guides. If I had the time I would experiment with cast iron for a drag race only engine — just to satisfy my curiosity so I knew how they might perform."

 

[tnuce10]

Great info gimlach! Thank you for that. My car is going to be a turbo car, so I will look into different valves and springs.

What has me the most curious is your comments about Livernois. I'm going to PM you my cell number so we can chat about it. I don't want this thing to turn into a money pit.