PREDATOR MISCONCEPTION?

[BigBeez03]

Everyone thinks the Predator has the ability of reflashing the Cobra's computer back to stock, hiding the tune changes made when modding. I don't know if this is neccessarily the case, this may be a misconception about the Predator. I heard some conflicting info from a credible source saying, "The Predator does not prevent the dealer from being able to tell your car has been modified. Anytime two computers are 'talking' to each other it leaves a trail of record. The dealer may still be able to tell you car's computer has been altered from changes made by the Predator".

I myself believe this as well knowing a little bit about computers. However, I would like to hear if anyone using a Predator has had their dealer perform factory warranty work for a mechanical problem after flashing the computer back to stock. Have any of you pulled this off? I'm sure many people would be very interested.


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[lethal]

Well, being an engineer myself, I'd need to know more about the internals of the ECU to exactly know whats possible (detection wise). However, I have said this before.... no need to "pull" anything off. You flash your computer, your altering the stock computer, thus maybe conflicting the the warranty. There is the need for them to prove it, but if you have a broken car, your more motivated to fix it then they are.

Now, my reason for getting the Predator was six fold:

1. No physical modification of the computer, that is, no scraping terminals, pulling off a panel, etc.
2. More performance, better tune.
3. Logging capabilities.
4. Making slight alterations at the dyno.
5. Custom program built for me.
6. Flashing back to stock program.

Now, the reasons for flashing back to stock:

1. I break something on a regular basis and decide the power is not worth it (ie: input shaft, half shaft, etc).
2. I decide to sell the car and transform it back to stock.
3. I flash the program back when I go in for warrenty work on an unrelated system (ie A/C, radio, breaks, etc) and do not want hassle.

I have no misconceptions. I will not be "getting away" with anything. If I break it, I'll pay to fix it. If you are considering buying it with the idea of concealing modifications, this product is probably not for you.

And, being a computer engineer, unless there is a specific set of static memory that is written (that is, stable when power is removed) there is no way you can tell the difference between an ECU that has a stock program on it, and an ECU theat has been reflashed and then flashed back to stock.

If its a 64Kb EPROM and we write 64Kb, its an image. Unless you have documented proof that they can tell, its just someones opinion. Just like this is.

John

 

[NMRAcer]

outstanding response Lethal
You helped me out too.

 

[One Fast Cobra]

If the aforementioned are concerns, than just leave your car stock until the warranty expires... Than do what your hart inspires you to do wihtout any worries or misconceptions...

Of course there are those that don't want to wait. For them, I say the Predator is the best way to go. The reason is because one is not just buying the means to download and upload custom tunes but one is also getting a great diagnostic tool. Any way those are my 2 cents.

 

[04-MystiChrome]

According to my old Z06 service tech-the Hypertech
I used left a signature sooo...although granted this
is a different car & different flasher I personnally
believe the Predator will leave a signature on the
bios. Wouldn't this be an easy question for a good
SVT service tech that sees this on a regular basis?

 

[lethal]

How would it leave a signature.

Your writing byte for byte, block for block on a finite amount of EPROM space.

I don't see how it can store anything else. Nobody has offered any evidence and the device has been out for over 4 months.

 

[King03Cobra]

If its a 64Kb EPROM and we write 64Kb, its an image. Unless you have documented proof that they can tell

I tend to agree with you, if the predator does write the entire image, which I'm pretty sure they would including the checksum value then I don't know how the dealer would be able to tell.

 

[ALA G8R]

Here is one way that a trail could be left. If the PCM has a bios, then that program could run a checksum compare on a defined, changeable range of flash. The checksum would be stored in a restricted area of flash. Each run cycle, the checksum for the changeable area would be calculated and compared against the checksum stored in the restricted flash area. If checksums are different, then a program change has been detected and a flag could be set in the restricted flash area. A tech could read that flag and tell.

Not saying that this algorithm is in there, but it would be possible.

Peace.

 

[One Fast Cobra]

I agree with 04-MystiChrome,
All computers leave signatures... A time and date stamp is the most common. So a time & date the PCM was last flashed is the most likely... It can be checked with the vehicle's recorded service history. I have also been told by some reputable sources that it is not that easy to get that information from the PCM and that is very unlikely for them to go there unless there is evidence that the vehicle was modified and the defect is directly related to this.

 

[SpittinCobra01]

great topic guys! I'm learnin alot

 

[ALA G8R]

One Fast Cobra,

The predator does not have a time and date setting. I don't believe that the PCM has one either. So the predator cannot store a date/time stamp when it does a flash.

If a real time clock did exist, your method would be a possibility.

 

[CHeRNoBYL]

If you do a simple search you will find that the only evidence the Predator leaves is one register storing the total number of flashes to the PCM.

 

[One Fast Cobra]

I did not say that the Predator left a time/date stamp. I said that it is one of the most common sigs used. Now if what CHeRNoBYL says is correct... than the number of how many times the PCM has been Flashed is enough for Ford to compare to the vehicle's history. But one very important thing is that I been told that getting that info is not that easy... Niney-Nine percent of time it won't get to that.:beer: :beer: :beer:

 

[04-MystiChrome]

Correct-Amoondo

 

[One Fast Cobra]

OK, I hope this will shed some light into this area...

I just talked to my friend who is a FORD SVT Master Mechanic who only works on SVT vehicles at a well known Ford dealership... I asked him:
Q: Can Ford tell if the vehicle had been reflashed with a custom tune..?
A: Yea, if you bring in the car with the custom tune in the PCM I will pick it up. It can be picked up with the WGS or the NGS.
Q: What about if I reverse the process and place back the stock tune before bringing the car to the dealer?
A: No, I will not be able to tell... The only thing that will show is the Calibration number. Other than that it doesn't say anything.
Q: Can a Ford inspector tell that the PCM has been reflashed?
A: No, all he would see is what I see and or what I tell him...
Q: Does the PCM have the capability to store other information that is not shown on a WGS or NGS.
A: Yea, but its not anything that a Ford mechanic or Ford inspector can see or detect. It would take one of the Ford engineers back in Michigan to get that information and it wouldn't go there unless there was real good reasons to send it there.

Just be aware that there is a lot of rumors going around. For example there was one that the PCM couldn't be reflashed more than 5 times because it would shut down after the fith one. Wrong, I have cars that I have reflashed more than 7,8 times and no shut down.

Thanks...

 

[stevieb]

Originally posted by One Fast Cobra
.
Q: What about if I reverse the process and place back the stock tune before bringing the car to the dealer?
A: No, I will not be able to tell... The only thing that will show is the Calibration number. Other than that it doesn't say anything.

Thanks...

Could you elaborate further on this? What does your friend say about this?
What calibration number is it going to show? Fords or Predator? And will it say the calibration date? I have been told it will show the last flash date and if the flash date didnt match up to any Ford updates or the service history of the vehicle, it will be obvious that the program has been comprimised.
By the way, good info you have posted on this thread.

 

[Z-COBRA]

I second Spittincobra01: Great education for me also.

 

[One Fast Cobra]

Could you elaborate further on this? What does your friend say about this?
What calibration number is it going to show? Fords or Predator? And will it say the calibration date? I have been told it will show the last flash date and if the flash date didnt match up to any Ford updates or the service history of the vehicle, it will be obvious that the program has been comprimised.
By the way, good info you have posted on this thread.

Well, based on what he told me:
1.) You want to make sure you down load the original stock tune back before you bring your car to the dealer.
2.) If you bring the car in with the stock tune in the PCM all they will see is the calibration number. As you know Ford's first run Cobras have a different calibration than the second run cars.
For instance those cars built in 2002 may show for example a 2R code and those built in 2003 will show a 3R code.

I don't know that the Predator shows any calibration number.
Also if it does they may not be the same as Fords.
But, the point is to remember to put back the stock tune back into the PCM before bringing your car to the dealer.
If you do this, the stock Ford calibration numbers will show, end of story...:coolman:

 

[PunishR]

nice to hear all this stuff about The Predator...if you can't afford to pay...then don't play guys. Screw warranties, run your BEAST down...let's have fun..hehe...boys never grow up...our toys just get more expensive.

Kenne bell '03 Black
9" live rear (get one for the above mod)

 

[One Fast Cobra]

nice to hear all this stuff about The Predator...if you can't afford to pay...then don't play guys. Screw warranties, run your BEAST down...let's have fun..hehe...boys never grow up...our toys just get more expensive.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :beer: :beer: :beer: :coolman: