Positive review of L&M Engines

[Makinghole]

In light of recent threads vilifying L&M Engines, I wanted to share my positive experience.

Back in December 2013, I sent a bare 5.8L block and heads to Michael at L&M for a full Texas Mile build. We spoke for a few hours on what kind of fuel/power adder/computer system I would be using, and came up with a build sheet. He sent me his recommended options, and I went with everything; the joke was it was their ‘select-all’ motor. In March of 2014 the engine arrived, was installed, and made right at 1100whp with break-in oil. That was with a Kenne Bell 4.2LC running around 24 pounds of boost. During the March 2014 Texas Mile, the car easily went 209 mph before the weather shut us down. Between March and October of 2014 the Kenne Bell was upgraded to a 4.7LC and we were able to make 1,260whp.

At the October 2014 Texas Mile, I was trying to squeeze out every possible MPH, but unfortunately hit the rev limiter which damaged the crank snout. Michael and the L&M crew were on-site to diagnose the problem. Fast forward a few months and it’s back from L&M with a fresh crank, rings, and bearings. Reinstalled the engine and again, with less than 50 miles on the clock and break in oil still in the pan, that engine cranked out 1,314whp and 1180wtq. Loaded the car up and went to the March 2015 Texas Mile ready to run. Problem with more power, though, is you will find a weak link, and it turned out to be the clutch. Made 3 passes with a maximum speed of 215 mph, and my clutch gave out. When the clutch let go, the motor free-revved and (learning from last race) I got out of the throttle before it hit the limiter. Again, Michel and the L&M crew were on site to gave the engine a clean bill of health.

I cannot say enough good things about the L&M guys. They are the only ones who will build my race motors. Michael and Chris are stand up people and have been nothing but a pleasure to work with. The Texas Mile is arguably the most difficult test for an engine, and the current Texas Mile GT500 record holder is running L&M. The previous record holder? Yup, L&M. I urge anyone looking to build a high HP mod motor to do some in-depth research on any engine builder. My suspicion is that you will find over whelming praise for L&M Engines.

 

[David Neibert]

Can anyone explain why hitting the rev limiter instantly damages these "Race" motors but doesn't seem to hurt a stock motor ? Is it possible to install soft limiter like the MSD ignition boxes have ?

David

 

[Makinghole]

Can anyone explain why hitting the rev limiter instantly damages these "Race" motors but doesn't seem to hurt a stock motor ? Is it possible to install soft limiter like the MSD ignition boxes have ?

David

The rev limiter dos not "instantly" damage the engine. What is does do it put a enormous strain on a already strained engine. The stock rev limiter is set at 6500 RPM, if I'm remembering that correctly, and we have the rev limiter set at 7500 RPM. You can set a soft limiter with the factory computer and we had on set. It is also worth pointing out that you can set the rev limiter where you want it. If you want to spin an engine to 8000 rpm you can, but don't be surprised if something gives up the ghost.

I spun the engine to 7800 RPM when the crank snout failed. What you also have to remember is that I am spinning a 4.7 liter blower running 26-28 psi. The stock blower is a 2.3 liter running 14-15 psi. Takes a lot more force to spin up a 4.7 and I took the crank past its design limits.

 

[Snoopy49]

All the praise in the world doesn't justify how L&M handles the failures that they have caused.

 

[2011 gtcs]

Good to hear OP. I have seen videos of your Shelby at the mile and it seems to run strong

 

[Weather Man]

All the praise in the world doesn't justify how L&M handles their failures that they have caused.

One guy who played with 1,000 HP a little to lightly and got burned. Which also answers the other guys question, at the 1,000 HP level and above, there is just no wiggle room and bad shit happens so very damn fast.

 

[Snoopy49]

One guy who played with 1,000 HP a little to lightly and got burned. Which also answers the other guys question, at the 1,000 HP level and above, there is just no wiggle room and bad shit happens so very damn fast.

Just because the motor is capable of producing 1000HP, doesn't mean that the power level was anywhere near that level when the problem reared it's ugly head. Just because a motor survives a dyno pull doesn't mean that there was not problem in the works. It may have taken a couple of hundred miles for the bolt to loosen up enough to cause the problem. Why would anyone need a warranty if all the problems that were ever going to happen to the car occurred during the first couple of days?

 

[Makinghole]

All the praise in the world doesn't justify how L&M handles the failures that they have caused.

Snoopy,

For my own education, what other failures has L&M had other then the one claimed by Bad Company?

 

[Weather Man]

Just because the motor is capable of producing 1000HP, doesn't mean that the power level was anywhere near that level when the problem reared it's ugly head. Just because a motor survives a dyno pull doesn't mean that there was not problem in the works. It may have taken a couple of hundred miles for the bolt to loosen up enough to cause the problem. Why would anyone need a warranty if all the problems that were ever going to happen to the car occurred during the first couple of days?

Warranty and 1000 HP engine, unless obvious part failure, just does not compute with me. There are so many things beyond the motor that have to be right that I think it is meaningless.

Frankly, I believe L&M's thought line on why the engine failed. Since there is no video, it is a moot point.

Losing a motor of that caliber flat out sucks, playing at those HP levels is not for the faint of heart for sure.

 

[serickson1]

Glad to hear your positive experience with L&M….they definitely build some bad ass motors…Michael has always been respectful and helpful every time I have dealt with him….

 

[Snoopy49]

Warranty and 1000 HP engine, unless obvious part failure, just does not compute with me. There are so many things beyond the motor that have to be right that I think it is meaningless.

Frankly, I believe L&M's thought line on why the engine failed. Since there is no video, it is a moot point.

Losing a motor of that caliber flat out sucks, playing at those HP levels is not for the faint of heart for sure.

The warranty I was talking about is the warranty that every manufacturer puts on there products. If something goes wrong with a product, the manufacturer stands behind the product because even with all the quality control they have, they realize things can go wrong with the assemble of the product and the problem associated with the assembly process may or may not show up before it leaves the plant.
What makes you think he was anywhere near the 1000 HP level when the problem occurred? He could have been at 400 HP or any other number you can come up with between 0 & 1000 HP.
At the power level he was probably at , at the time of the failure, the motor should have been bullet proof. A motor built to be safe at 1000 HP should last for a very long time when running at 400-800 HP.

Makinghole

Snoopy,

For my own education, what other failures has L&M had other then the one claimed by Bad Company?

I have no idea, the way that Bad Company was treated and with all the research and investigation he did, it was enough to convince me that both Evolution and L&M were both responsible for the failure.
Is it really that hard for people to believe that one of the bolts on the engine may not have been torqued properly. What kind of QC does L&M use to insure that ever part is installed correctly? How do they make sure all the fasteners are properly torqued and none of the bolts are bottomed out or the nuts that are installed on studs are not contacting the unthreaded shaft on the studs? Unless they have an inspector watching the entire assembly process and confirming the assembly process, we only have the word of the assembler that ever task was properly carried out.
There have been other posts that have talked about L&M engine failures on the initial dyno runs and it appears that they took responsibility for those failures and handled the repairs. It would be interesting to see what caused those failures, was it a part or something like a loose nut or bolt? I guess we will never know. In Bad Companies case, his failed under non race conditions within 300 miles of the rebuild. He was still breaking in the engine at the time.

 

[TVS VERT]

My thoughts are this, has L&M made some bad ass motors that have settle records ?? Yes of course they have thats nothing new, but the issue i have with Kurt's Motor is the fact of how Michael handled the situation, he just forked over a lot of money on the motor and for them not to stand behind the engine they sell isn't how a "High End" shop should run business....L&M should have taken the motor back done repaired it and Kurt should have taken care of all the labour involved with the install and removal those are my thoughts. I hear the quote, "Race Motors have no warranty" well hate to break it to ya but they do, JDM offers a 12 month no detentation warranty and so does MMR to name a few.

When it comes time for me to build a motor for my car , the Visa Statment wont have "L&M Engines" on it based soley on that treatment that Kurt received from them... MPR, JDM or even MMR will get my business before them i know MMR has sold some Lemons but Mark Lutton has warrantied a lot of his mistakes.

 

[DieselDr]

I agree with Tvs vert. I was getting ready to ship the motor on my gt right when the l&m saga thread was going good. I ended up going with mpr because the were just too many question marks with l&m. For the record, although a little slow, I got everything I paid for from mpr for exactly what I was quoted.

 

[Catmonkey]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but lets not lose sight of the fact that L&M was Evo's subcontractor. None of us are privy to how Evo spec'd that engine to be built, regardless of what specs they showed and misrepresented to Bad Company. By BC's own admission, Rauschner told him he through this was a budget build. I'm just thinking out loud here, but if I were in the engine building business and a customer specs an engine against parts I recommend for the horsepower level the custmer is pursuing, I would build it with no warranty. On the other hand there are other things that came out in Bad Company's analysis that give me heartburn, like the possible valve spring coil bind issue. It's hard to tell from pictures, however.

I think there's a lesson to be learned from BC's experience. If you intend to build an engine, you might want to deal with the engine builder directly and contract with someone else to install it. Unless you disect an engine, you're never going to know what went into it. Had BC's engine not greneded, he still wouldn't know what parts went into the build and Evo would be fat and happy.

I'd be curious to know if L&M still does work for Evo after this fracas. That would tell me all I needed to know right there.

 

[Snoopy49]

By BC's own admission, Rauschner told him he through this was a budget build. I'm just thinking out loud here, but if I were in the engine building business and a customer specs an engine against parts I recommend for the horsepower level the custmer is pursuing, I would build it with no warranty.

I can't imagine a highly rated business that would build a budget engine and knowingly use substandard parts in the build. It is their name on the build and their reputation that is on the line. Even though L&M was a subcontractor, they are still responsible for the work they were paid for and performed.

 

[Weather Man]

I can't imagine a highly rated business that would build a budget engine and knowingly use substandard parts in the build. It's is their name on the build and their reputation that is on the line. Even though L&M was a subcontractor, they are still responsible for the work they were paid for and performed.

I think the only thing it shows is that the more people inserted between the engine builder and the end customer, the more likely you will have a communication breakdown. The problem being, it is all he said/she said now, so there never will be a clean resolution to his deal. So you end up with one unhappy customer spamming the universe and all the guys who are perfectly happy with their L&M engine who don't post, because well, their happy!

 

[Catmonkey]

I can't imagine a highly rated business that would build a budget engine and knowingly use substandard parts in the build. It's is their name on the build and their reputation that is on the line. Even though L&M was a subcontractor, they are still responsible for the work they were paid for and performed.

What substandard parts? Granted they weren't the parts BC wanted and thought he was paying a premium to be included, but those cams use 12mm cam bolts which are substantially larger then the OEM 10mm cam bolts. But who is the responsible party here? Would L&M put premium parts in an engine when they can only charge for a budget engine build? Who's the bad guy that got what he ordered and turned around and charged his customer full price for premium parts they knew damn good and well were not included, and thought they'd get away with? How many more are out there?

As for substandard parts, the OEM cam sprockets are in thousands of engines and probably quite a few built engines. Ford thinks the cam sprockets are stout enough for their Cobra Jets. That said, I'm upgrading my OEM sprockets with billet sprockets and stronger chains due to BCs thread. They may well be overkill, but that's how I role. It's obviously how BC rolls too, and thought he was. He has every right to be mad as hell. Now if you want to put premium parts in each and every engine build and tell the customer to take a hike if he doesn't like the premium parts price tag, well I'm not sure how many engines you'd build.

If I'm coming across as taking up for L&M, well that's was not my point. I think Evo should get every bit of bad publicity they get out these threads. However, I think L&M is being vilified beyond their role in this project. There is no such thing as a bullet proof engine, and yes engine builders can and do make mistakes. Was this one? I've yet to see the smoking gun.

But I've made my point and I'll move on. I was simply pointing out my observations. I hope BC ends up with a killer engine because he sure as hell deserves it after all this.

 

[Snoopy49]

When I said substandard parts I was referring to parts that the builder knew where problematic at this HP level, yet he still built the engine. If BC's engine had failed at the track, who should he say, if asked, built the engine.? It wasn't Evo it was L&M.
Catmonkey,
I did not mean to suggest that you were on either side. I was just referring to a statement you quoted. If the statement is true, then L&M should have never excepted the job. Now their reputation is being questioned.

 

[David Neibert]

The rev limiter dos not "instantly" damage the engine. What is does do it put a enormous strain on a already strained engine. The stock rev limiter is set at 6500 RPM, if I'm remembering that correctly, and we have the rev limiter set at 7500 RPM. You can set a soft limiter with the factory computer and we had on set. It is also worth pointing out that you can set the rev limiter where you want it. If you want to spin an engine to 8000 rpm you can, but don't be surprised if something gives up the ghost.

I spun the engine to 7800 RPM when the crank snout failed. What you also have to remember is that I am spinning a 4.7 liter blower running 26-28 psi. The stock blower is a 2.3 liter running 14-15 psi. Takes a lot more force to spin up a 4.7 and I took the crank past its design limits.

Thanks for the info. From what I can see, the stock rev limiter is 6250 when motor is cold and 7000 after it's warmed up, so for the majority of time the car is driven the limiter on the stock motor is 7000 rpm. I understand what you are saying about the increased load on the crank snout from the larger blower and higher boost, but the failure I'm referring to, is with the timing chains and cam sprockets. Just seems too easy to hit the rev limiter at stock power level if tires spin or you try to wind a gear out too far before shifting, and I'm sure it's even more likely to happen if you add another 350 HP.

An explanation of how the rev limiter actually works would be very helpful to me. Does it cut fuel, close the throttle, turn off spark to every other cylinder or what ?? Also are you saying there is a soft and hard rev limiter, if so please explain the difference.

Thanks, David

PS: I don't have a dog in this fight about L&M, just looking for info on engine damage from hitting the rev limiter.

 

[Snoopy49]

From the 2014 Mustang Service Manual

Engine RPM Limiter
The PCM disables some or all of the fuel injectors whenever an engine RPM over speed condition is detected. The purpose of the engine RPM limiter is to prevent damage to the powertrain. Once the driver reduces the excessive engine speed, the engine returns to the normal operating mode. No repair is required. However, the technician should clear the DTCs and inform the customer of the reason for the DTC.

Excessive wheel slippage may be caused by sand, gravel, rain, mud, snow, ice, or excessive and sudden increase in RPM while in NEUTRAL or while driving.

From the 2013 GT500 Owners Manual Supplement.

Redline 6250 rpm continuous 7000 rpm temporary over-rev

ENGINE OVER-REV
Note: Engine torque and maximum rpm are limited until coolant temperature reaches 170°F (77°C). Warm up is indicated when the redline indicator band starting point changes from 6250 rpm to 7000 rpm. Your vehicle is equipped with an over-rev feature to increase the performance range of your Shelby GT500. When conditions permit,over-rev is indicated on the tachometer with redline marked at 7000 rpm. If conditions limit over-rev accessibility, the band is illuminated red from 6250 rpm to 7000 rpm.
Once the engine is warm, the over-rev feature allows eight seconds above 6250 rpm up to 7000 rpm. If the eight second time limit is exceeded, the maximum engine rpm is reduced to 6250 rpm until both of the following occurs:
• Engine is operated for at least 15 seconds below 6000 rpm
• Engine rpm falls below 5000 rpm.
Do not operate the engine at high rpm and low load for sustained periods of time, as damage may occur.

I hope this helps.