Pinion Nut Torque With Solid Spacer

[SteveWK]

Understand what you are saying, but ... The preload specs are based on the pinion seal being installed with a collapsible spacer. Wouldn't the same preload specs apply whether the spacer was collapsible or not? Not sure what the difference is.

 

[SteveWK]

Total

FMS-M-4209-884108.8" 4.10 RING & PINION
Ready to Ship

Should ship Monday.

 

[biminiLX]

Great choice!
Join the 4.10 crew, never met a member whose regretted it. As long as you have sticky tires that is!
-J

 

[SteveWK]

Why can't I quote anyone? Anyway, the 3.73s were not what I thought they would be, and a previous poster mentioned that the 4.10s seem to whine less, and ... Jack + Scummit = 4.10s lol.

As far as tires are concerned, I have 285 Toyo R888s on the rear and similar on the front. Love the traction these tires provide plus they are open track competition tires with true sidewalls and can handle spirited on and off ramps.

Steve

 

[Snoopy49]

Jus seen this update. I will tell u with my experience in having rear ends installed and the failure of gears grinding is almost always the fault of the INSTALLER himself.

My shop which is a very experienced shop won't even touch a rear end install and has one guy come out and do all the installs cause a lot of ppl **** up the install and therefore they fail prematurely. Its not just something ANY shop can pull of properly.

I don't think the quality of the parts has anything to do with ur issues. I have at least half a dozen buddies who drag their cars with that same set-up and they have never had any issues and they beat the shit out of their cars and they make probably 500 more hp then ur car does!

I think GNBrett has the right idea. The installers are responsible for most of the problems. It seems like a lot of the installers are flat rate mechanics and care more about how fast they can do a job as opposed to the quality of the job. Rebuilding a rear end is a lot like blueprinting an engine, it takes special tools, a lot of time and patience, the ability to research the project and a person who cares about the outcome. When was the last time you saw a mechanic lookup a torque spec, most of them consider the air impact gun the first choice when tightening fasteners?

 

[SteveWK]

3.73s... its just something about that gearset that makes noise in the S197 3 link. My 4.10s make a little noise after making a few passes on them last year, but nothing like the 3.73s.

Going to 4.10 would limit your top speed to under 200mph... but unless you routinely go that fast, you'd be very happy with 4.10s.

With slicks and prep, 4.10s and the 2.90 first gear in my 2011 is like engaging warp speed.

Great choice!
Join the 4.10 crew, never met a member whose regretted it. As long as you have sticky tires that is!
-J

Cancelled my 4.10 order, but I do see it in the future. I want to find the answer to my current problem first and hopefully avoid it in the future.

I think GNBrett has the right idea. The installers are responsible for most of the problems. It seems like a lot of the installers are flat rate mechanics and care more about how fast they can do a job as opposed to the quality of the job. Rebuilding a rear end is a lot like blueprinting an engine, it takes special tools, a lot of time and patience, the ability to research the project and a person who cares about the outcome. When was the last time you saw a mechanic lookup a torque spec, most of them consider the air impact gun the first choice when tightening fasteners?

I agree it has something to do with the install, but what is the question. I think I will pop the cover off and paint the gears, take pictures, and post. Also, the carrier bearings should be preloaded. I'm speculating here, but if they are properly preloaded the ring gear should have a certain maximum amount of allowed motion left and right correct? Sorry, I don't know the technical term for it. I will buy a dial gauge to check these things.

Also, I am going to remove my watts link and put the panhard bar on. The panhard bar has poly ends vs the Heim joints on the watts link. Also the watts link is bolted to the diff cover and any noise is transmitted directly to the body.

Here is another bit of information. It whines on both accel and decel, and it sounds like the whine changes from the drivers side on accel to passenger side on decel.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Snoopy49]

Also, the carrier bearings should be preloaded. I'm speculating here, but if they are properly preloaded the ring gear should have a certain maximum amount of allowed motion left and right correct? Sorry, I don't know the technical term for it. I will buy a dial gauge to check these things.s again for all the help.

There should be no play side to side on the ring gear, if there is, there is no preload.

The first thing you do when setting the backlash is remove all the side play. You then adjust the backlash, then set the preload.

Differential Carrier.pdf

 

[Snoopy49]

I updated the Differential Carrier pdf, above, I forgot to include the specifications.

 

[SteveWK]

There should be no play side to side on the ring gear, if there is, there is no preload.

The first thing you do when setting the backlash is remove all the side play. You then adjust the backlash, then set the preload.

Differential Carrier.pdf

Cool, thanks. It will be a few days or so before I open it up. I need to buy a dial gauge, caliber, gear paint and brush, and carrier bearing install tool. Probably should get an assortment of shims too. I want to have my bases covered when I do open it up. I hope the pinion is at the right depth. I really don't want to mess with that.

 

[Snoopy49]

Everything depends on the correct pinion depth. You should be able to confirm the correct pinion depth with the tooth contact pattern.

 

[SteveWK]

I updated the Differential Carrier pdf, above, I forgot to include the specifications.

Thanks. Even though I have all of this on CD I have a hard time finding it sometimes. Much appreciated.

 

[Snoopy49]

Steve, I noticed in your other thread that you have a torque arm installed. The whine you are hearing may not be as bad as you think it is, the torque arm and watts link combo may be magnifying the effect. Were these installed with your previous gear set and did you have a whine ?

 

[SteveWK]

Both the torque arm and Watts link were installed before the new gears. The stock gears did whine some. The 3.73s are louder but only bother me at 60 mph +/- 3 mph. It seems to resonate in that speed range. The torque arm has a rubber bushing where it mounts to the body. The Watts link is solid Heim joints and mounted to the source, the differential. It definitely isn't helping. Griggs makes a quiet version of the Watts link rods with poly on one end. I would like to get those or a poly rod end for the current setup. I may also put my BMR panhard bar back on with poly on both ends, but I will have to have the driver's side Watts link bracket cut off and ground down. It is welded on. My plans to open track the car often have changed and the panhard bar may be good enough for me and street driving.

 

[SteveWK]

Spoke with Bruce Griggs today. Super informative guy. I highly recommend their products. As far as the Watts link is concerned and a poly end, he didn't think it would make much difference. I will try or hopefully try putting the the panhard back on without the cross member and drive down the street and see if it improves the whine. I rode in the car over the weekend and sitting in the passenger seat it made less noise. I'm thinking constructive and destructive wave forms, but what do I know .

 

[SteveWK]

biminiLX made me do it! Sitting on the couch next to me. Don't know when they will get installed, but soon I hope. Sigh, got other issues with misfire codes now to resolve first, random misfire and cylinder 4. Started with putting the stock exhaust back on and new tune. This is a topic for another thread though.

The 3.73s still feel a bit long in the tooth in first and second. I'm not worried about what is best for street racing. I'm all about the fun factor.

Any sort of argument between 3.73s and 4.10s can be explained in the link below.

 

[biminiLX]

Haha Steve you da man!
I offer a money back satisfaction guarantee
Seriously though good luck.
-J

 

[Bad Company]

The problem is more than likely the pre-load of the carrier bearings. Why do I suspect this? Ford uses a cast iron shim for these when they build a new rear. These are over sized and must be driven into place to set the carrier bearing pre-load. Once you determine that you have the proper gear pattern and backlash with the set of shims that come in a rebuild kit you are supposed to order the one piece cast iron shims from Ford that are 0.003" thicker for both the left and right side to set the carrier bearing pre-load and drive them into place with a special tool. My post is going off of memory, so I'm not 100% positive on the 0.003" spec. Without installing the thicker one piece shims from Ford to set bearing pre-load, the rear will never be quiet. Unfortunately the instructions that come with the Ford Racing parts to install a Ford Racing gear set never inform you of this. The instructions in the factory service manual for the Ford dealerships to perform a rear axle repair has the proper way to set carrier bearing pre-load in a 8.8" rear axle assembly.

I went through both the Ford Racing instructions and Ford service manual to replace the gears and carrier in my own axle. I decided after reading both sets of instructions that any speed shop performing a gear change wouldn't do it correctly because of the one piece cast iron shims to set carrier bearing pre-load. I went out and bought all of the special installation tools to rebuild the 8.8" rear axles off of Ebay. A friend and I spent roughly 12 hours setting the gear set up per the factory service manual. The gears never got a chance to be broken in before the car hit the dyno to lay down big Hp numbers with a max speed of 175mph. I've since driven the car a 100 miles or so on the street and the rear is quiet.

Sit down and read the service manual closely, as it also has a complete listing of the one piece cast iron shims you need to order from Ford to set the carrier bearing pre-load correctly. I honestly believe this is why the 8.8 rears are so hard to get them quiet during a gear change or rebuild. The 9" rear has a threaded collar to set carrier bearing pre-load and it is extremely easy for anyone to do. This is why I think guys that convert to a 9" rear have great results in regards to gear whine.

 

[merkyworks]

@Bad Company great information.

I wonder which is more important. The one piece cast shim Vs a stack of shims or the additional thickness the one piece cast shim provides. Like after a speed shop sets bearing pre-load per Ford Racing instructions they then take the pinion gear out and add another 0.003" shim, would this yield similar results as using a one piece cast shim.

 

[Blown38]

@Bad Company great information.

I wonder which is more important. The one piece cast shim Vs a stack of shims or the additional thickness the one piece cast shim provides. Like after a speed shop sets bearing pre-load per Ford Racing instructions they then take the pinion gear out and add another 0.003" shim, would this yield similar results as using a one piece cast shim.

Bad Company is talking about the diff carrier bearings. The bearings on the side that the axles run thru to hold the diff. Not the pinion bearing. When setting up the contact patch you run a set of shims that you can semi easily slide the diff in and out with. So there is really no preload on the side bearings. Ford has cast shims that you could drive in between the carrier bearings and the axle housing so that you can get some preload on the side bearings.

I try to run the thickest set of shims I can to get some preload on the carrier bearings by hammering them in. Or get the thin shims on one side and hammer in the thick ones on the other side.

I have also seen a 2 piece shim pack where the out sides are thick and you can stack thin shims on the inside of the pack.

 

[merkyworks]

Bad Company is talking about the diff carrier bearings. The bearings on the side that the axles run thru to hold the diff. Not the pinion bearing.

Got it, well never mind then lol.