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<blockquote data-quote="thePill" data-source="post: 13135391" data-attributes="member: 119504"><p>Wrong? It's very possible GM is cooking the books... I wouldn't put it pass them. If GM is incorrectly reporting numbers, it will come back to bite them. Automotive News (I'm sure they are good) is NOT where we get data when investing is concerned. We go straight to GM. When it comes down to it, GM vs. Automotive News (media that is usually 90% inaccurate), investors tend to lean towards the GM PDF that is released every month. I can't imagine being in a conference call and debating GM's report using a media source. The numbers are correct as reported by General Motors themselves... With GM, you don't need to be a high end investor to look at their sales and production data. Since the company became public, they are forced into an open door policy so investors are not blindsided... Ford is a different story, you have to be an investor to get that data. </p><p></p><p>I'm not talking about the Camaro program. Even if I was, new models usually cost between 4 to 6 million (edit: Billion) dollars EVEN with shared components and those are figures from the late 90's early 00. I settled on the $4 billion mark because of the shared chassis and engine though, with all the delays, I would bet that could be too low. Also, I highly doubt the convertible program was figured into the initial development cost. The Camaro chassis literally had to add in additional layers within the sheet metal. The R&D for that came later ('08-'10) as well as shopping multiple vert top distributors. Since a carry over model's can start at billion dollars, and hiccups can be devastating, the 5th Gen was an expensive venture I'm sure.</p><p></p><p>The numbers are so bad, Camaro5 has abandon the sales/production records on their very own Wiki <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/wiki.php?title=CAMARO+WIKI" target="_blank">CAMARO WIKI - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com</a></p><p></p><p><strong>CY Production - Sales (Left overs) As reported by General Motor and charted by a member.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>2009: 81,299 - 61,648 (19,651 unsold)</strong></p><p><strong>2010: 94,433 - 81,299 (13,134 unsold)</strong></p><p><strong>2011: 106,987 - 88,249 (18,738 unsold)</strong></p><p><strong>2012: 91,902 - 91,145 (757 unsold)</strong></p><p><strong>2013: 30,201 - 27,147 (3,054 unsold to date)</strong></p><p><strong>Difference in production vs. sales: <u>55,334 Unsold Camaro's</u></strong></p><p></p><p>2012's production was pretty close to last years, about 98-105,000 (Edit: 91,902). Camaro5 has put a lid on this and I have seen some of the numbers fudged so I had to check them manually. They will use MY sales vs. CY production to create a fraudulent picture. As seen here.. <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/december-2011-camaro-sales-and-production-figures/" target="_blank">http://www.camaro5.com/december-2011-camaro-sales-and-production-figures/</a> They conveniently leave out January to September production numbers in 2010 and 2011 but count the entire model year sales. Wonder why?</p><p></p><p>Since production of the new MY started in September, they report they only made 47,000 and sold 88,249. The year before that, reported 47,000 and sold 81,000. In '09, 61,000 sold, 81,000 made. Lets pretend they are correct. That means at the end of 2011 they produced 175,000 Camaro's but sold 230,000 cars. Hmmmmmmmmm that's a pretty neat trick!!! Remember, this is as reported by Camaro5. The truth is, they are counting the MY production and comparing it to the CY sales. This was changed to hide the poor sales and over production.</p><p></p><p>Here come the links!!!</p><p>December 2009: <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59396" target="_blank">http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59396</a></p><p></p><p>December 2010: <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122636" target="_blank">http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122636</a></p><p></p><p>December 2011: <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077" target="_blank">http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077</a></p><p></p><p>December 2012: <a href="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077" target="_blank">http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077</a> (Grand totals are now absent)</p><p></p><p>Can you explain to me in detail how a car company sells more cars than they produce? And why would Oshawa operate on 3 shits if they were only making 47,000 cars a year. That is one shift, not three. I'll explain it, they are LIARS, CHEATS and THIEVES. That's OK, fortunately, I am not a liar, cheat or thief and... if you really wanted to, you can add up the totals month to month and see how bad it really is which still eludes the masses over there. Although, the production numbers are not posted on Camaro5 anymore just deliveries. (Edit: I am finding error on the charts as well. In December 2012, they reported selling 5,837 and produced 7,378 however, if you scroll down to add up the production numbers, they have 5,837 produced and sold 7,378. Anything to throw regular people off the trail. I will find the real production and sales myself.</p><p></p><p>As of Jan 2012</p><p></p><p><img src="http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=330415&stc=1&d=1328113780" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>In June 2012, the "difference" went missing... Kind of an important stat ya think?</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]470618[/ATTACH] </p><p></p><p>Also note, the charts January production numbers were posted as 10,700 however, only 7,250 were made. I have to check my personal ledger to see why they put the Jan '12 numbers in the Dec '11 spot.</p><p></p><p>Now, back to the Camaro's initial production cost. <a href="http://translogic.aolautos.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cost-so-much-for-automakers-to-develop-new-models/" target="_blank">http://translogic.aolautos.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cost-so-much-for-automakers-to-develop-new-models/</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>A single clay model cost about $300,000 alone, marketing is over a $100 million annually for new cars and Transformers cost them $20 million just to bump the Saleen Mustang from the Bumblebee spot. Just in marketing alone, from '07 to '09 was a 1/4 billion dollars. Crash testing? You think advertising is expensive, try to find that figure reasonable... Here is an article about Ford's $6 billion dollar investment on the Mondeo in 1993 <a href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1993/06/28/78013/" target="_blank">http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1993/06/28/78013/</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's $6,000,000,000 in 1993 for an all new, global vehicle (drivetrian's were shared with other models I believe). It also states that Ford spent about half of that on the Taurus/Sable in 1985. If you think GM paid less than that in 2007, you would probably be incorrect. Inflation alone brings the 1993 Mondeo to $8508853247.03 billion dollars in 2007. I seem to remember a statement released last summer about the Camaro. It was said that Chevy just started making money on each model on Camaro sold. Since total sales of the Camaro equal around $10.5 billion since April 2009, and they just recently said they are finally making money on it, I would say it cost around $9 billion to develop the 5th Gen. The statement was vague, did they mean that R&D has been paid for and now every Camaro sold was profit OR, were they losing money on each car and just finally started making money on each model. It's no secret car companies lose money for the first couple of years per model but figure service fees over the lifetime will offset that cost. Assuming we are selling big numbers in which the Camaro did not. Car makers usually make an average of $1200 per car... They could be making a dollar per Camaro or $3000 (unlikely). But this much is for sure, the Camaro was losing money on each car sold until summer 2012. I believe if they were making profit (meaning R&D is paid for, they would have said profit. However, they merely stated they were making money per car now which leads me to believe they were losing money on every car sold. We also can't pretend that R&D for the convertible, ZL1, 1LE, Z28 and redesign doesn't cost money. The new LS3 wasn't free either, nor the brand new TR6060, or the rear axle, or the IRS and so on. </p><p></p><p>Another thing, Ford does not over produce the Mustang as Chevy does the Camaro. They are usually within 1-3% of sales. Chevy finally has brought production down to actually meet real demand, not their internal projections. The damage has already been done... 55,000 2010-2013 Camaro's are out there when the 2014 hit the lots. BAD PRODUCT MANAGEMENT!!! Example: In 2011, 76,000 were produced, 73,000 were sold. 2010 stock had been completely depleted with the exception of lot lizards. Production remained the same last year even though they sold slightly more (76,000 sales if I remember correctly) because those left over 2011's were fluffing the sales and Ford had plans on the '13 anyway. So basically a repeat of 2010. There were no 2009's left in 2011. So, Ford overproduced the Mustang initially in the amount of 3000-ish, a portion of those sold with the '12. 2013's production remained the same as last year (78,000). Ford really can't make anymore cars because they are limited by a single shift. It is impossible for them to produce Camaro numbers on one shift. Therefore, impossible for them to have 60,000 unsold cars as Chevy does.</p><p></p><p>So, you wanted proof, there it is.... I don't think it's a secret, I am in this industry.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Scott as in Settlemire, he is from this area but I doubt he would return. Especially if he had to work for me...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="thePill, post: 13135391, member: 119504"] Wrong? It's very possible GM is cooking the books... I wouldn't put it pass them. If GM is incorrectly reporting numbers, it will come back to bite them. Automotive News (I'm sure they are good) is NOT where we get data when investing is concerned. We go straight to GM. When it comes down to it, GM vs. Automotive News (media that is usually 90% inaccurate), investors tend to lean towards the GM PDF that is released every month. I can't imagine being in a conference call and debating GM's report using a media source. The numbers are correct as reported by General Motors themselves... With GM, you don't need to be a high end investor to look at their sales and production data. Since the company became public, they are forced into an open door policy so investors are not blindsided... Ford is a different story, you have to be an investor to get that data. I'm not talking about the Camaro program. Even if I was, new models usually cost between 4 to 6 million (edit: Billion) dollars EVEN with shared components and those are figures from the late 90's early 00. I settled on the $4 billion mark because of the shared chassis and engine though, with all the delays, I would bet that could be too low. Also, I highly doubt the convertible program was figured into the initial development cost. The Camaro chassis literally had to add in additional layers within the sheet metal. The R&D for that came later ('08-'10) as well as shopping multiple vert top distributors. Since a carry over model's can start at billion dollars, and hiccups can be devastating, the 5th Gen was an expensive venture I'm sure. The numbers are so bad, Camaro5 has abandon the sales/production records on their very own Wiki [url=http://www.camaro5.com/forums/wiki.php?title=CAMARO+WIKI]CAMARO WIKI - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com[/url] [B]CY Production - Sales (Left overs) As reported by General Motor and charted by a member. 2009: 81,299 - 61,648 (19,651 unsold) 2010: 94,433 - 81,299 (13,134 unsold) 2011: 106,987 - 88,249 (18,738 unsold) 2012: 91,902 - 91,145 (757 unsold) 2013: 30,201 - 27,147 (3,054 unsold to date) Difference in production vs. sales: [U]55,334 Unsold Camaro's[/U][/B] 2012's production was pretty close to last years, about 98-105,000 (Edit: 91,902). Camaro5 has put a lid on this and I have seen some of the numbers fudged so I had to check them manually. They will use MY sales vs. CY production to create a fraudulent picture. As seen here.. [url]http://www.camaro5.com/december-2011-camaro-sales-and-production-figures/[/url] They conveniently leave out January to September production numbers in 2010 and 2011 but count the entire model year sales. Wonder why? Since production of the new MY started in September, they report they only made 47,000 and sold 88,249. The year before that, reported 47,000 and sold 81,000. In '09, 61,000 sold, 81,000 made. Lets pretend they are correct. That means at the end of 2011 they produced 175,000 Camaro's but sold 230,000 cars. Hmmmmmmmmm that's a pretty neat trick!!! Remember, this is as reported by Camaro5. The truth is, they are counting the MY production and comparing it to the CY sales. This was changed to hide the poor sales and over production. Here come the links!!! December 2009: [url]http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59396[/url] December 2010: [url]http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122636[/url] December 2011: [url]http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077[/url] December 2012: [url]http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193077[/url] (Grand totals are now absent) Can you explain to me in detail how a car company sells more cars than they produce? And why would Oshawa operate on 3 shits if they were only making 47,000 cars a year. That is one shift, not three. I'll explain it, they are LIARS, CHEATS and THIEVES. That's OK, fortunately, I am not a liar, cheat or thief and... if you really wanted to, you can add up the totals month to month and see how bad it really is which still eludes the masses over there. Although, the production numbers are not posted on Camaro5 anymore just deliveries. (Edit: I am finding error on the charts as well. In December 2012, they reported selling 5,837 and produced 7,378 however, if you scroll down to add up the production numbers, they have 5,837 produced and sold 7,378. Anything to throw regular people off the trail. I will find the real production and sales myself. As of Jan 2012 [IMG]http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=330415&stc=1&d=1328113780[/IMG] In June 2012, the "difference" went missing... Kind of an important stat ya think? [ATTACH=full]470618[/ATTACH] Also note, the charts January production numbers were posted as 10,700 however, only 7,250 were made. I have to check my personal ledger to see why they put the Jan '12 numbers in the Dec '11 spot. Now, back to the Camaro's initial production cost. [url]http://translogic.aolautos.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cost-so-much-for-automakers-to-develop-new-models/[/url] A single clay model cost about $300,000 alone, marketing is over a $100 million annually for new cars and Transformers cost them $20 million just to bump the Saleen Mustang from the Bumblebee spot. Just in marketing alone, from '07 to '09 was a 1/4 billion dollars. Crash testing? You think advertising is expensive, try to find that figure reasonable... Here is an article about Ford's $6 billion dollar investment on the Mondeo in 1993 [url]http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1993/06/28/78013/[/url] That's $6,000,000,000 in 1993 for an all new, global vehicle (drivetrian's were shared with other models I believe). It also states that Ford spent about half of that on the Taurus/Sable in 1985. If you think GM paid less than that in 2007, you would probably be incorrect. Inflation alone brings the 1993 Mondeo to $8508853247.03 billion dollars in 2007. I seem to remember a statement released last summer about the Camaro. It was said that Chevy just started making money on each model on Camaro sold. Since total sales of the Camaro equal around $10.5 billion since April 2009, and they just recently said they are finally making money on it, I would say it cost around $9 billion to develop the 5th Gen. The statement was vague, did they mean that R&D has been paid for and now every Camaro sold was profit OR, were they losing money on each car and just finally started making money on each model. It's no secret car companies lose money for the first couple of years per model but figure service fees over the lifetime will offset that cost. Assuming we are selling big numbers in which the Camaro did not. Car makers usually make an average of $1200 per car... They could be making a dollar per Camaro or $3000 (unlikely). But this much is for sure, the Camaro was losing money on each car sold until summer 2012. I believe if they were making profit (meaning R&D is paid for, they would have said profit. However, they merely stated they were making money per car now which leads me to believe they were losing money on every car sold. We also can't pretend that R&D for the convertible, ZL1, 1LE, Z28 and redesign doesn't cost money. The new LS3 wasn't free either, nor the brand new TR6060, or the rear axle, or the IRS and so on. Another thing, Ford does not over produce the Mustang as Chevy does the Camaro. They are usually within 1-3% of sales. Chevy finally has brought production down to actually meet real demand, not their internal projections. The damage has already been done... 55,000 2010-2013 Camaro's are out there when the 2014 hit the lots. BAD PRODUCT MANAGEMENT!!! Example: In 2011, 76,000 were produced, 73,000 were sold. 2010 stock had been completely depleted with the exception of lot lizards. Production remained the same last year even though they sold slightly more (76,000 sales if I remember correctly) because those left over 2011's were fluffing the sales and Ford had plans on the '13 anyway. So basically a repeat of 2010. There were no 2009's left in 2011. So, Ford overproduced the Mustang initially in the amount of 3000-ish, a portion of those sold with the '12. 2013's production remained the same as last year (78,000). Ford really can't make anymore cars because they are limited by a single shift. It is impossible for them to produce Camaro numbers on one shift. Therefore, impossible for them to have 60,000 unsold cars as Chevy does. So, you wanted proof, there it is.... I don't think it's a secret, I am in this industry. Scott as in Settlemire, he is from this area but I doubt he would return. Especially if he had to work for me... [/QUOTE]
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