N/A Performance

[SpookSVT]

I'm still up in the air about if I still want to dish out the money to turbocharge this car, and seeing how it really can't put it down I'm wanting to save my money and build a N/A 3L.

I've looked at the heavy hitters in this category and they seem to be DemonSVT, timeless420, and David Z who isn't around anymore. David had the benefit of getting ahold of one of the SVT touring car's heads and cams and was putting down almost 250whp. I'm ruling him out since he "cheated." Timeless420 was making 237 but he also had 11.5:1 compression. Is there any way you can put down 250whp w/ out custom cams or high compression pistons?

Demon, I'm not even going to bother asking what you're making but do you got any tips or can you assure me it's possible?

This is the plan:
-01+ 3L block, knife-edged crank, lightened flywheel, fully balanced assembly, rev to 7500RPM
-Tumble port heads; Clean-up work, rounded bowls, port even w/ valve seat, angled roof, worked (more than primary) secondary port for max high RPM power, radius injector towards secondary port, trim valve guides. Chamber work; unshrouded valves (how much on that?), cleanup and polish. Exhaust port; cleanup and polish, roof work, slightly angled floor, port even w/ valve seat.
-SVT camshafts
-EH manifold; widened inlet mouth, 34.5mm primary, 37mm secondary
-LIM; primary inlet 34.5, secondary 37mm w/ custom butterfly
-65mm TB
-Stock MAF
-24lb injectors (widespray pattern)
-custom accordian tube
-GMK CF SRI w/ heat shield, cold air supply form hood duct and front fascia
-K&N filter
-MSDS headers port matched and wrapped
-custom 2" SS y-pipe, wrapped
-2.5" highflow cat w/ 2.5" pipe back to a 2" split w/ strait through mufflers
-XCAL2 for tuning, a hell of alot of tuning
-Magnacore competition wires
-Plugs(need recommendation)
-large guage grounds and batterleads
-UD pullies

Thats all I can think of right now.

Can I get my goal or close? If need be or I could get more power I was going to do pistons but at like 11:1 or 10.8:1 because I'm running on 93 octane and I think you can make more power on that by being able to pull more timing where the higher compression would hold you back. I also have a gas station that has E10 available that would be a boost in octane but not many have that available yet.

 

[Ryan]

I believe Mirko and those guys were running around 270fwhp, but then again, I believe they were also running 12.5-1 compression ratio.

 

[SpookSVT]

I believe Mirko and those guys were running around 270fwhp, but then again, I believe they were also running 12.5-1 compression ratio.

Were'nt they using race fuel too?

Most of the 2.5L touring cars were at 13.5:1 using race fuel and made almost 300bhp (IIRC). I have no idea about the 3L ones though.

Can you still contact some of these guys or will they not give any information out? I think most of them are running different cars now though.

 

[Ryan]

I contacted Mirko when I first starting gathering parts for my build and them seemed somewhat helpful. I think they'd still be a good source of info.

 

[SpookSVT]

I contacted Mirko when I first starting gathering parts for my build and them seemed somewhat helpful. I think they'd still be a good source of info.

Thanks!

I'm looking at getting in touch with Leo Capaldi and possibly th Mumm brothers to see if they have any info I could use.

 

[SpookSVT]

Mirko couldn't give me any info on cam manufacturers or specs. He redirected me to roush and I emailed them but don't expect anything. Shobros have a hotter cam than the SVT in development so I'm waiting to see what they come up with.

 

[SpookSVT]

Cams and revving past 7500RPM

I'm giving up on the team contour guys so I'm just going to ask around here.

This engine seems to be of F1 design, short stroke, oversquare (3L), DOHC heads, and likes to rev. So this is basicly what I want to do; high compression pistons, headwork, cams, and rev the motor.

My questions are, how high can you reliably rev this motor and can you make any improvements over the SVT cams for more power up top?

This car has to still be reliable and drivable as it is my DD. I'm keeping the secondaries and going to lighten the flywheel another 2 pounds and If I have money go back to the stock 4.06 FD ratio. All this to keep it drivable.

The only things I see holding this motor back is a nice set of cams and the intake manifold. The cams just need to hold the TQ curve a little higher and longer than the SVT's. The thing is I need specs. DemonSVT, I know you know a little bit about cam math, could you possibly help me out?

The manifold while good for making good lowend TQ and such a flat TQ curve is holding the car back up top IMO. I'm willing to sacrifice a little drivability to make some crazy highend power, where all the fun is at.

I was looking at the SHO designs and thought they would really work well on the duratec. A single plane oval/tubular upper. The heads would be converted oval ports to accept split port manifolds.

If anyone can help me out here I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[Ryan]

I think it you want to keep this car as you DD, then you need to come up with a different plan of attack especially seeing how your planning to keep the HP in the very upper RPM band.

I also disagree with your assessment that the intake manifold is holding the car back. Its the same basic design as the SHOs and there are some mean SHOs out there. I believe what is holding back the cars power potential out side of stock, and to the degree you want is the camshafts. Greg obviously is making awesome power and he is running the stock camshafts, but he's also running lower compression than stock. Imagine if he went with the higher c/r! CAT Cams in the UK supposedly has some 2.5L / 3.0L cams, but the issue there is how to get a cam sprocket on the camshaft as I believe their cams come without any sprockets.

As for revving, I believe Greg has revved to just under 8k successfully and numerously without any failures. I think that was with the SVT valve springs, I think the ST220 springs would be a bit better for revving.

 

[ClOckwOrk]

these cars seem strange. i dont know what mine will rev to, fuel cuts at 7100.... but i can rev to 8k if i spray..... is it a fuel system problem, or just not pulling/pushing enough air? i dont know what guys are doing but it would seem that the best way to rev the car would be to put 3L valves in the 2.5, with st200 valvesprings, and i dont even know what to do with the cams. it makes me sad that sho's can rev so much higher

 

[SpookSVT]

I think it you want to keep this car as you DD, then you need to come up with a different plan of attack especially seeing how your planning to keep the HP in the very upper RPM band.

What about Gregs (Demons) 2.5L then? It's not like I'm going to be past 7000RPM all the time. I don't want to have to go past 7500RPM as piston speeds are just getting past 4000FPM. Thats when you have to start worrying about significant wear. He ran that motor out to 8200RPM I believe only to make a usable powerband because he turned his 2.5L split ports into what we now call tumble ports like the touring car teams did.

I also disagree with your assessment that the intake manifold is holding the car back. Its the same basic design as the SHOs and there are some mean SHOs out there.

What are the 3L V6's making N/A?

Even triple EH'd I don't think your still getting full potential for topend power. I could still be wrong though.

I believe what is holding back the cars power potential out side of stock, and to the degree you want is the camshafts. Greg obviously is making awesome power and he is running the stock camshafts, but he's also running lower compression than stock. Imagine if he went with the higher c/r!

Cams are definately holding the car back a bit. I'd like to get a hold of DavidZ's cams. Greg wouldn't make any more power w/ higher CR pistons unless he ran racefuel, otherwise I believe he would have gone higher. I want him to chime in though.

 

[SpookSVT]

i dont know what guys are doing but it would seem that the best way to rev the car would be to put 3L valves in the 2.5, with st200 valvesprings, and i dont even know what to do with the cams. it makes me sad that sho's can rev so much higher

I don't want to rev if I don't have to. There's no sense in revving a motor that high if you don't have to, your just wearing it out and would have to replace parts regulary.

The whole point to extending an engines rev limit is to either make a wider more usable powerband or make more power. You can only make more power when revving if the TQ curve can extend that far without dropping off severely. HP=TQ*RPM/5252, just do the math.

SHO's and Duratecs both can do 8000RPM easy. SHO's won't make any more power by revving higher as their TQ curve drops off fast in the upper RPM range, they need cams if they want to rev higher. A Duratec w/ SVT cams on the otherhand will make more power and hold it because it holds the TQ longer into the upper RPM range.

 

[Ryan]

What about Gregs (Demons) 2.5L then? It's not like I'm going to be past 7000RPM all the time. I don't want to have to go past 7500RPM as piston speeds are just getting past 4000FPM. Thats when you have to start worrying about significant wear. He ran that motor out to 8200RPM I believe only to make a usable powerband because he turned his 2.5L split ports into what we now call tumble ports like the touring car teams did.



What are the 3L V6's making N/A?

Even triple EH'd I don't think your still getting full potential for topend power. I could still be wrong though.



Cams are definately holding the car back a bit. I'd like to get a hold of DavidZ's cams. Greg wouldn't make any more power w/ higher CR pistons unless he ran racefuel, otherwise I believe he would have gone higher. I want him to chime in though.

Greg went with a lower c/r for other reasons.

I think the most documented N/A 3L was around ~235fwhp. Most are low 200fwhp area. However, I think Greg is the only one who has spent the most time with all the little details, to get the most out of the 3.0L. I think the other issue is a lack of reliable and good tuners out there for our platform.

I guess, I don't understand your logic on why the 2.5L manifold is holding back the car? IMO, its the best all around design for this type of motor. Gives you good tq, and great top end power. I think alot of guys are jsut going to big on everyting on top and killing the actual velocity of the air.

 

[SpookSVT]

Greg went with a lower c/r for other reasons.

I think the most documented N/A 3L was around ~235fwhp. Most are low 200fwhp area. However, I think Greg is the only one who has spent the most time with all the little details, to get the most out of the 3.0L. I think the other issue is a lack of reliable and good tuners out there for our platform.

I guess, I don't understand your logic on why the 2.5L manifold is holding back the car? IMO, its the best all around design for this type of motor. Gives you good tq, and great top end power. I think alot of guys are jsut going to big on everyting on top and killing the actual velocity of the air.

Why did he go lower?

Yes we do lack tuners. Thats why I want to learn how to tune my own car.

I kind of guess your right on this, I'm also getting caught up on peek numbers. I just really want to make the most of this motor N/A and it's a really good challenge and I know there is more to be had from it. Greg I suspect is at if not close to 250whp and I'd really like to see what could be done with something other than stock parts.

 

[ClOckwOrk]

im not understanding the logic here..... you guys want to build N/A motors that cost just as much as a boosted/nitrous setup, and they will be slower? plus you run the thing right at the edge so its always that much closer to a catastrophe....... and to prove what? n/a just isnt the modern age.....and theres no aftermarket for that type of build, really. boost, or buy a v8! (imo)

 

[SpookSVT]

im not understanding the logic here..... you guys want to build N/A motors that cost just as much as a boosted/nitrous setup, and they will be slower? plus you run the thing right at the edge so its always that much closer to a catastrophe....... and to prove what? n/a just isnt the modern age.....and theres no aftermarket for that type of build, really. boost, or buy a v8! (imo)

This car plain sucks with big power because its FWD. The only real way to put any power down is N/A or Nitrous w/ progressive control. Anyone can slap a nitrous kit on plus they get expensive real fast w/ accesories and I don't want to have to fill a bottle. I want the power always there.

I'm learning to appreciate the car for what it is and will keep it for a long time. When it comes time to build a boosted car it's going to be a 2G Eclipse converted to RWD with a TT 3L. I've already decided that, but thats besides the point.

I build my own motors, do my own head work, install, etc... It's not really expensive to do a 3L. I would take much pride in the fact that I can make 250whp N/A in a 3L V6, how many people do you know that can do that? I like challenges and this is a good one. I'm not out to beat everyone on the street, I enjoy the back roads alot. I have more fun that way.

 

[ClOckwOrk]

well i guess i can see what your saying. but you really havent seen a contour that was FULL drag. if you were willing to sacrifice the contour's sweet ability to spank most other cars around corners, you would be able to hook up nicely. there are 8 second hondas that are fwd......a contour could be just as good or better. honestly, i would like to have a supercharged csvt for road racing/twistie fun, and daily driving with interior and a/c. and another stripped caged built for alot of nitrous and not turning very well csvt.... for the strip. right now im working on a setup thats good for both but in the end the suspension setup will be great for corners and bad for hookup. when i have enough cash and another csvt i will diversify them and make the two i want.

 

[SpookSVT]

well i guess i can see what your saying. but you really havent seen a contour that was FULL drag. if you were willing to sacrifice the contour's sweet ability to spank most other cars around corners, you would be able to hook up nicely. there are 8 second hondas that are fwd......a contour could be just as good or better. honestly, i would like to have a supercharged csvt for road racing/twistie fun, and daily driving with interior and a/c. and another stripped caged built for alot of nitrous and not turning very well csvt.... for the strip. right now im working on a setup thats good for both but in the end the suspension setup will be great for corners and bad for hookup. when i have enough cash and another csvt i will diversify them and make the two i want.

Some guys like the strip, others like the road course. I like both, but I'm not fighting a car that doesn't do well on the strip. Others will disagree and that's fine. You need two cars nowadays any way so I will in the end.

The 7/8 sec FWD cars you speak of are FULL drag cars. They have tube chassis' and motors pushing 1000HP+, that speaks for its self. There are 9 sec street Honda's out there but they also weigh less than 2200lbs and make 5/600whp. Not hard to run those times with that kind of power to weight ratio. Even then they still have traction issues.

I'd like to see what a FULL drag CSVT could do. Mine will have one of the most beefed up front suspensions when I'm done with it so I'll be finding out myself.