METHANOL- searched, still some ?'s

[AMP]

I just bought a snow performance injection kit, and 5 gallons of methanol.
I did search, but came up with so many different opinions that I'd like to hear the latest.

first question:

are our blowers rotors coated with teflon, and will the meth cause it to flake/ peel off?

second question:

has anyone here succesfully injected meth/water after the blower.... where and how.

third question:

how hard is it to tune, and is it worth it.

I know there have been tons of threads on this, but none have been conclusive to me, and I'm wondering what the latest word on this is. I don't want to go through the hassle of setting all of this up if it's gonna screw up my blower, or be a biatch to tune with not much gain.

thanks in advance,
Aaron

 

[lilsuperman1721]

it shouldnt be that hard to tune, if your tuner knows how to handle it, but i have it on my car, i think its worth it because when drving for an hour your blower gets hot and after maybe flooring it for that hour, what the meth does is it keeps the blower cool like ice cold, and keeps your hp and tq possibly the same if not more power then be4 and you were driving it for that hour... remeber the meth likes to be more on the lean side and more gains r possibly achived with the 625 jet, i think i have the 350 in mine.

 

[AMP]

it shouldnt be that hard to tune, if your tuner knows how to handle it, but i have it on my car, i think its worth it because when drving for an hour your blower gets hot and after maybe flooring it for that hour, what the meth does is it keeps the blower cool like ice cold, and keeps your hp and tq possibly the same if not more power then be4 and you were driving it for that hour... remeber the meth likes to be more on the lean side and more gains r possibly achived with the 625 jet, i think i have the 350 in mine.

you probably are running the right nozzle (unless you're pushing 600 hp). It's a 375, and the larger nozzle is a 625.

My biggest question is what does this stuff do to your rotors over the long run. Have you pulled off your blower to see what it looks like?

 

[KENZILLA]

i would love to know the answer to this also. I have a 2.2 KB on mine and i would like to also know if the Meth will have any effect on the piston coating on our 03-04 Cobras? Anyone with some info please chime in!

 

[bender460]

I've searched for this answer also. What I've come up with is over the long haul 50k+ miles it may have some ill effects. There is huge potential using meth but you may loose power with it unless you tune for it.

 

[69cobrajet]

N20 works best.It's not corrosive,plus the cooling effect is mo betta. :read:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Use straight distilled water.

 

[Black2003Cobra]

I don’t know why my other post in this thread got deleted, so let me try again.

Meth has not been found to provide large increases in power for our cars. The idea is, of course, that one could increase timing (or boost) by cooling the charge. (And no…cooling the charge isn’t going to increase the density or mass of air going into the engine unless you spin the blower harder. Remember, by definition a positive-displacement blower forces in a fixed amount of air with each revolution. And yes…I’m aware of the 2nd-order effects.) But you can only increase timing so much (up to MBT timing) before power starts to come back down again. And once you’re close to MBT timing, the gains per degree of timing start to get smaller and smaller. I have not seen anyone report finding any improvement past 22-23 degrees. In fact, meth injection has been tried on a number of our cars by a very well-known, (but un-named), tuner with virtually no success.

 

[AMP]

I don’t know why my other post in this thread got deleted, so let me try again.

Meth has not been found to provide large increases in power for our cars. The idea is, of course, that one could increase timing (or boost) by cooling the charge. (And no…cooling the charge isn’t going to increase the density or mass of air going into the engine unless you spin the blower harder. Remember, by definition a positive-displacement blower forces in a fixed amount of air with each revolution. And yes…I’m aware of the 2nd-order effects.) But you can only increase timing so much (up to MBT timing) before power starts to come back down again. And once you’re close to MBT timing, the gains per degree of timing start to get smaller and smaller. I have not seen anyone report finding any improvement past 22-23 degrees. In fact, meth injection has been tried on a number of our cars by a very well-known, (but un-named), tuner with virtually no success.

this is what I've heard also by a local tuner. However, MM&FF just did a write up on the kit on an 04 (w/ a KB), and reported something like 60+ horse. Would this work for an eaton, I don't know. There just seems to be so little information out there that is application specific for us 03 and 04 owners.

I guess my question is:

is any one using this successfully with an eaton.... how much power gain at what timing, and how long has it been on? (does it have ill effects on rotors, etc.)

Or, would 400 bucks be better spent elsewhere?

 

[Black2003Cobra]

I have to believe they must have done something more than just increase timing then. Did they also spin the blower faster?

 

[WDW MKR]

I have to believe they must have done something more than just increase timing then. Did they also spin the blower faster?

Alky can make great power w/out upping the boost, and only raising timing. A lot of people prefer it over nitrous b/c it's not as hard on the motor, doesn't cost nearly as much to operate, and is more of a safety mod. You have two choices when running alky:
1) Increase the timing a fair amount to pull max power
2) Slightly increase the timing and use the alky as a cooling mod and safety net.

The Teflon coating issue has been discussed many times. The general concensus is that the meth is only sprayed under boost and will completely evaporate. There are several people using this kit with good results. Some others have tried it and didn't like it, which is no different than most mods. I ran it with great success on my GN, and plan to eventually run it on the Cobra. Anyone wanting good research info on alky needs to visit the Alky Injection section of www.turbobuick.com

There was also a great discussion going on over at ModFords, regarding the benefits of straight meth vs. meth/water mix vs. straight water. Running straight water with our roots blower won't get you near as much as either of the other two options. I had best result with straight meth in my Buick. I'm not sure what I'll run in the Cobra. The water has some advantages, such as reduced flamability of the 50/50 mix and chemical reactions aided by the addition of water into the combustion chamber.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Alky can make great power w/out upping the boost, and only raising timing. A lot of people prefer it over nitrous b/c it's not as hard on the motor, doesn't cost nearly as much to operate, and is more of a safety mod. You have two choices when running alky:
1) Increase the timing a fair amount to pull max power
2) Slightly increase the timing and use the alky as a cooling mod and safety net.

The Teflon coating issue has been discussed many times. The general concensus is that the meth is only sprayed under boost and will completely evaporate. There are several people using this kit with good results. Some others have tried it and didn't like it, which is no different than most mods. I ran it with great success on my GN, and plan to eventually run it on the Cobra. Anyone wanting good research info on alky needs to visit the Alky Injection section of www.turbobuick.com

There was also a great discussion going on over at ModFords, regarding the benefits of straight meth vs. meth/water mix vs. straight water. Running straight water with our roots blower won't get you near as much as either of the other two options. I had best result with straight meth in my Buick. I'm not sure what I'll run in the Cobra. The water has some advantages, such as reduced flamability of the 50/50 mix and chemical reactions aided by the addition of water into the combustion chamber.

Great info. I have played with it quite a bit in the Subaru world as well.

Generally, it is best used as a safety net (esp on pump gas). Remember, if one component fails and you have your timing cranked way up it could spell disaster for your engine. You really want to have a well planed install and some sort of saftey mechanism to let you know that the system is or isnt working properly.

 

[Black2003Cobra]

Yes, I understand that. I understand the theory quite well. As a fuel substitute, its heating value is about half that of gasoline so it's not great in those regards, alone. Meth has a high latent heat of vaporization, which is very good at cooling the charge. This allows you to increase timing while avoiding the knock limit. (The knock limit is increased by the cooling.) It also has a relatively high ON, itself. And that's all well and good, and it has proven to work on many different kinds of cars. But if you are already very close to, or at MBT (maximum brake torque) timing, then the power gains per degree of timing are slim to none. And of course exactly how much you gain per degree of timing will also depend on how much power you currently make. Etc etc etc.

BUT, outside of this MM&FF article, I have yet to see anyone say they have achieved good gains with meth on an '03 or '04 Cobra. I'm not flaming or anything, I just haven't seen the data. If someone out there has seen good gains, then I would be very interested in seeing all the details. (How much timing was added, how much power was made, IAT2 data, etc).

If someone wants the name of someone to talk to who has tried this on several '03 & '04 Cobras, PM me.

 

[WDW MKR]

Search ModFords. Several have had good results, while a few have not. You have to keep in mind that this is a new mod for 03/04 Cobras. Alky wasn't an instant hit with the Turbo Regal guys, either. It takes time to get all of the variables lined out. I still think the lower IAT2 is worth the price, regardless of power addition.

 

[Black2003Cobra]

Lots of guys run close to MBT timing now (depending on how much boost they have), so they won’t gain much from an increase in timing, alone. No offense, but it just isn’t feasible. On the other hand, if they increase boost, then clearly there should be a power gain. As far as safety, I will agree with you that lower IAT2s is a good thing. I suppose if one had a problem there, (such as when running really high boost in high ambient temps), it might be a reasonable solution. Most of the cases I've heard of have been on ModFords. I'm starting a thread over there to collect all the data.

 

[WDW MKR]

Not everyone is as close to MBT as you think. Various combos and locations react differently. Some people have stepped it up to 25-26* of timing gained a lot. Regardless of high boost/low timing vs. low boost/high timing, the goal is still more powre. Same debate has been going on with the Buick guys for years. Some prefer high timing and boost in the low-20s, while others want to run lower timing and boost near 30psig. And lower IAT2 temps are always a benefit. I don't think anyone has ambient temps low enough to actually produce an IAT2 that is too low, especially after passing through the blower.

 

[jimh]

Our eatons have teflon coated rotors. Meth injection will strip the teflon away. The Snow Performance kit needs to be after the blower. Your not trying to cool the blower, just the air charge. Call Snow Perf., they'll tell you you need to install it after the blower. I read a lot on these a while back when the Lightning guys were first trying them. A bunch guys who ran the jet pre blower pulled their blowers to find the intercooler clogged with the teflon from the rotors.
I don't think the KBs are teflon coated. KB used to sell a meth injection kit, but discontinued it. I think it was more of a reputation issue. Guys were tuning agressive with it and when people pushed their cars with the water tank low or empty the aggressive tunes were causing damage. Of course people are going to say KB setups are not safe, so instead of going through that they discontinued it. After all there are other kits out there.

 

[Black2003Cobra]

OK...let's end the debate....show me the data for the '03 & '04 Cobras. I would like to see timing, boost pressure, IAT1 & IAT2, and power/tq before and after meth. Otherwise, it’s all hearsay, as far as I’m concerned. (If I may quote Bob Cosby, “In god we trust…all others bring data.)

Two folks I heard from on ModFords said they saw basically no gains. (One claims to have tried it on a few cars.) Another tuner posted some data in a separate thread, but only gave the final numbers, in terms of timing. (Oh, and guess how much timing they ended up running after adding the meth injection...23 deg. If more was to be made, wouldn’t you think he’d have done so?)

I have seen one person post that he planned to run 26 degrees, but never did see the outcome. If this is the case you are referring to, please point me to it. I would honestly like to see the hard data. All I've ever read posted by various tuners et al. on these forums is that they see very little or no gain past 22-23 degrees. I would quote names, but last time I did that my post was deleted. If you want a name of one of the tuners, PM me and I’ll point you to the thread.

I could also show you modeling data of relative power gain vs timing, (but it probably wouldn’t convince you any way). But the bottom line is, you don't gain much relative power/tq per degree of timing even below MBTT, so unless you can increase it a lot, the gains just won't be there. Sorry…you won’t convince me otherwise.

Look...I appreciate all your comments, but you really won’t convince me unless I see hard data. Until then, I think I’ll just let this rest because I really don’t care to argue about it. I’ve said my peace. Best of luck to you.

 

[AMP]

OK...let's end the debate....show me the data for the '03 & '04 Cobras. I would like to see timing, boost pressure, IAT1 & IAT2, and power/tq before and after meth. Otherwise, it’s all hearsay, as far as I’m concerned. (If I may quote Bob Cosby, “In god we trust…all others bring data.)

I'll have to second this. I'm still very interested in hearing anyone's accounts of how it worked well on an 03/04 Cobra, and how it was installed and tuned, and for what gains/ temps. Untill then, the kit I recently purchased is staying in the box. Some have said that it works effectively on some guys cars.... let's hear from them w/ some details.

Thanks.

 

[WDW MKR]

OK...let's end the debate....show me the data for the '03 & '04 Cobras. I would like to see timing, boost pressure, IAT1 & IAT2, and power/tq before and after meth. Otherwise, it’s all hearsay, as far as I’m concerned. (If I may quote Bob Cosby, “In god we trust…all others bring data.)

Two folks I heard from on ModFords said they saw basically no gains. (One claims to have tried it on a few cars.) Another tuner posted some data in a separate thread, but only gave the final numbers, in terms of timing. (Oh, and guess how much timing they ended up running after adding the meth injection...23 deg. If more was to be made, wouldn’t you think he’d have done so?)

I have seen one person post that he planned to run 26 degrees, but never did see the outcome. If this is the case you are referring to, please point me to it. I would honestly like to see the hard data. All I've ever read posted by various tuners et al. on these forums is that they see very little or no gain past 22-23 degrees. I would quote names, but last time I did that my post was deleted. If you want a name of one of the tuners, PM me and I’ll point you to the thread.

I could also show you modeling data of relative power gain vs timing, (but it probably wouldn’t convince you any way). But the bottom line is, you don't gain much relative power/tq per degree of timing even below MBTT, so unless you can increase it a lot, the gains just won't be there. Sorry…you won’t convince me otherwise.

Look...I appreciate all your comments, but you really won’t convince me unless I see hard data. Until then, I think I’ll just let this rest because I really don’t care to argue about it. I’ve said my peace. Best of luck to you.

Ease up, bud. I don't have time to surf the net all day and link various posts. Your theories are absolutely correct. I am going off of my experience with alky on Turbo Buicks, which has shown plenty of gains per degree of timing. These are different cars, so they will react differently. I don't need you to convince me of anything. I stated nothing as fact; only what I've seen. A summary of results from various tuners would be great to see. One particular tuner that has posted positive results is Lethal. Perhaps Jared or Derek can chime in. I do agree that the relatively low appetite for timing, displayed by our cars, is not a good selling point for the alky kits. I still plan to experiment with alky on my car.

Regarding the Teflon, it has been "proven" right and "proven" wrong; just depends on who you ask. Methanol will eat Teflon if it is submersed. Spraying a high velocity mist into the upstream side of the blower is a lot different than soaking the rotors in Methanol. Also, running a 50/50 mix greatly changes the corrosive nature of any chemical. Most corrosives do not have a linear concentration vs. corrosion curve. Sulfuric acid, for example, is less corrosive at 98% than it is at 92%. Variables such as temperature and pressure greatly effect all of this. I have no data tables for a specific case of methanol being injected into a high velocity stream, at the temperature and mass weight of the air coming into our motors, and flowing over a set of teflon-coated rotors. We cannot inject in between the blower and intercooler b/c there is no room. The spacer required to facilitate this form of injection would also require modifications to the hood... maybe even various connections on the blower.