Methanol/Alcohol Injection Progressive???

[Apicia]

Wondering if I could pick some of your minds here. I have an Alky injection system setup on my 2.8H Kenne Bell. These injection systems usually are used on turbo cars like the Grand National. On my car, it serves as an octane booster to run 20 psi of boost (was 22-25 psi).

Questions: What MAF voltage would be considered the norm for activation for a twin screw car? I have heard 3.0 - 3.5. Should it come on hard or gradual?

My system has three controls.

1. Turn on - uses MAF voltage to determine when to activate the system.
2. Initial - sets the ramp of the slope. You can have it come on slowly and finish strong, or you can have it come on strong and stay strong. I would think the turbo cars want a more gradual spray. You would think twin screw cars need to come on hard.
3. Overall voltage - effects the entire slope and multiplies all voltages on the slope.

Problem is not many people use an Alky injection setup on a twin screw. It's easier to just pour Torco in the gas tank. If setup correctly, the Alky system would work just as well or better. Problem I have been running into is the Alky system activates too early and before WOT. This bogs the motor, as the narrowband is trying to keep the A/F at 14.7 and can't compensate for a large amount of fuel being injected.

Need to figure out what MAF voltage to activate the system and what slope to spray at. The amount of spray is subjective and depends on how much boost and timing you want to run.

 

[turbov6joe]

Wondering if I could pick some of your minds here. I have an Alky injection system setup on my 2.8H Kenne Bell. These injection systems usually are used on turbo cars like the Grand National. On my car, it serves as an octane booster to run 20 psi of boost (was 22-25 psi).

Questions: What MAF voltage would be considered the norm for activation for a twin screw car? I have heard 3.0 - 3.5. Should it come on hard or gradual?

My system has three controls.

1. Turn on - uses MAF voltage to determine when to activate the system.
2. Initial - sets the ramp of the slope. You can have it come on slowly and finish strong, or you can have it come on strong and stay strong. I would think the turbo cars want a more gradual spray. You would think twin screw cars need to come on hard.
3. Overall voltage - effects the entire slope and multiplies all voltages on the slope.

Problem is not many people use an Alky injection setup on a twin screw. It's easier to just pour Torco in the gas tank. If setup correctly, the Alky system would work just as well or better. Problem I have been running into is the Alky system activates too early and before WOT. This bogs the motor, as the narrowband is trying to keep the A/F at 14.7 and can't compensate for a large amount of fuel being injected.

Need to figure out what MAF voltage to activate the system and what slope to spray at. The amount of spray is subjective and depends on how much boost and timing you want to run.

I ran an Alky Control kit on my turbo Regals for many years, and did a LOT of test-n-tune with it to get it dialed in. I along with Eric Marshall (Turbotweek) made countless hits on the track as R&D for his alky chips. I agree with you that the ramp should be more aggressive with a blower car. However, keep in mind that with pump gas alone, you should be able to run ~18 psi. What your trying to do is add just enough octane (meth or alky) to compensate for the extra few psi/timing your wanting to run. How aggressive your ramp needs to be, is dependant on the alky kit your using...is it a mister or jet type nozzle? Alky or meth adds a bunch of octane, too much of that is not good for optimal performance. When running alky/meth there are numerous problems you will run into while tuning. Some of which are false knock or detonation due to excessive amounts of unburned alky/meth buring off after the power stroke of that cylinder. Excessive EGT spike due to the same thing...if you monitor EGT you need to ignore the very last part of the run when the throttle blade closes and the EGT spikes. The
O2 sensor going crazy due to the additional fuel causing the a/f ratio to suddenly go rich. Many times the additional fuel will cause the O2 to pull fuel and the motor goes lean...your tuner should know how to compensate for that if they have any experience with alky/meth. IMO there is no other fuel that makes more power than methanol. Not only do you get the additional octane, but you also benefit from the cooling effect. Much of my research has been focused on meth injection and ambient air/motor temps. What I have concluded is that the methanol injected cars tend to make more power in the warmer air/engine temps. The meth atomizes significantly better when it hits warm air...it tends to form into droplets in cooler air, and doesn't burn completely. Lastly, make certain your car is at normal running temp before a meth pass/pull. Cool or cold heads also tend to cause the meth to not atomize as efficiently. Meth is some nasty shit that can really mess the internals of your motor up if any residual is left inside....it's also hell on paint! Change your oil often and watch for cylinder washing if your running a lot of the stuff. Remember, you want to squirt just enough to ward off detonation for whatever boost/timing your running. My LC2 powered motors could only run ~15 psi on 92 ocatne and 23 degrees of WOT timing. With progressive meth injection I could run 30 psi and 22 degrees of WOT timing...all on 92 octane pump gas:beer: Good luck!

 

[Apicia]

Thanks a bunch. So, it seems that more is not always better. I don't get the cooling because the methanol hits the screws and heats up before getting to the intercooler. But, if I go by what you are telling me, the methanol will atomize better warm.

I have the AlkyControl kit.

I will try having it come on hard when it comes on. The Kenne Bell makes a lot of power and torque early. I just don't want it coming on so soon either. Hard and late, but before WOT. It's running off of MAF voltage, so I need to find that magic voltage or MAF count where I can turn it on.

 

[turbov6joe]

Thanks a bunch. So, it seems that more is not always better. I don't get the cooling because the methanol hits the screws and heats up before getting to the intercooler. But, if I go by what you are telling me, the methanol will atomize better warm.

I have the AlkyControl kit.

I will try having it come on hard when it comes on. The Kenne Bell makes a lot of power and torque early. I just don't want it coming on so soon either. Hard and late, but before WOT. It's running off of MAF voltage, so I need to find that magic voltage or MAF count where I can turn it on.

That's a good kit, Julio is a good friend of mine. I'm new to the Cobras, wish I could lend you some advice as to what voltage is best. I was assuming you were spraying post blower, I guess anywhere is better than not at all. The turbo Regals activate off of boost psi...you can vary the turn on based off of what psi you set it at. I used to have mine start spraying at 4 psi and ramp slowly to avoid getting too fat too soon...it's all a matter of test-n-tune for your specific combo/car. Your going to have to find that happy median, because you are absolutely correct...too much or too little is no good. However, if your going to error, do it on the too fat side of the coin.

 

[Apicia]

Julio has been good to me. It is just an issue of application. Although he makes a kit for our cars, most don't use methanol on a positive displacement blower.

My problem is WOT demands that specific A/F ratio in the tune. Off of WOT, it is calling for 14.7 or whatever the tuner demands. Hard to tune for non-WOT and high boost. Sometimes in 4th gear, I will give it 1/2 throttle and get 15 psi. I thought it would be good insurance to have it come on late and hard, but my tuner says most detonation occurs early when the blower comes on. Check out my dyno where the tune is fat when the blower is hitting 22psi early.

Sooooo, I need it hard and early at WOT. I don't need it when not in WOT. You would think a WOT switch would do the trick. But it's too late then. I guess finding that MAF voltage or MAF count that is only seen at WOT, and rarely at non-WOT is essential. I can still create lots of boost in a non-WOT scenerio though.

I guess this is why everyone is running Torco to get that extra timing and boost. I agree that 18psi can be run on pump gas at 8.5:1. I am at 9.3:1 though.

 

[novi2000]

O am running the Alky Control dual M15 Nozzle kit on a compound boost through the Eaton Blower and seeing a 60 degree IAT2 drop at 30+ psi. There is a tuner up you way named Mike Dez who is good with tuning meth kits on Cobras , his shop is called Dez Racing, or you can give my tuner a call Jeff Harris
Mo's Speed Shop and he can get you pointed in the right direction.

 

[turbov6joe]

Julio has been good to me. It is just an issue of application. Although he makes a kit for our cars, most don't use methanol on a positive displacement blower.

My problem is WOT demands that specific A/F ratio in the tune. Off of WOT, it is calling for 14.7 or whatever the tuner demands. Hard to tune for non-WOT and high boost. Sometimes in 4th gear, I will give it 1/2 throttle and get 15 psi. I thought it would be good insurance to have it come on late and hard, but my tuner says most detonation occurs early when the blower comes on. Check out my dyno where the tune is fat when the blower is hitting 22psi early.

Sooooo, I need it hard and early at WOT. I don't need it when not in WOT. You would think a WOT switch would do the trick. But it's too late then. I guess finding that MAF voltage or MAF count that is only seen at WOT, and rarely at non-WOT is essential. I can still create lots of boost in a non-WOT scenerio though.

I guess this is why everyone is running Torco to get that extra timing and boost. I agree that 18psi can be run on pump gas at 8.5:1. I am at 9.3:1 though.

The problem with meth is that there is a fine line that's very easy to cross. Once detonation starts, meth cannot put out that fire like most would think. You have to start spraying before detonation occurs, and apply just the "right" amount it throughout the pull. Unlike turbos that come on fairly slow and build somewhat gradually, positive displacement blowers are violent as far as that's concerned. That's why your having trouble getting your tune correct. I ran a WB O2 that had the ability to adjust a/f real time. When the car was running on the NB O2 at part throttle conditions, it refered to one fueling map. When I hit WOT and a few parameters were met (MAF, LV8, TPS), the ECM refered to the WB O2 and adjusted the a/f to whatever I was commanding it to be. What I had is sorta what your trying to achieve by finding that magical MAF voltage or count that exists at WOT.

 

[Apicia]

The problem with meth is that there is a fine line that's very easy to cross. Once detonation starts, meth cannot put out that fire like most would think. You have to start spraying before detonation occurs, and apply just the "right" amount it throughout the pull. Unlike turbos that come on fairly slow and build somewhat gradually, positive displacement blowers are violent as far as that's concerned. That's why your having trouble getting your tune correct. I ran a WB O2 that had the ability to adjust a/f real time. When the car was running on the NB O2 at part throttle conditions, it refered to one fueling map. When I hit WOT and a few parameters were met (MAF, LV8, TPS), the ECM refered to the WB O2 and adjusted the a/f to whatever I was commanding it to be. What I had is sorta what your trying to achieve by finding that magical MAF voltage or count that exists at WOT.

Exactly. I need the methanol to spray when the car enters open loop. I don't need the methanol when in closed loop. I am getting injection during closed loop and the car falls flat. I need to find out what the MAF count of MAF voltage is when the car goes into open loop. That is not an exact science. The car goes into open loop at a range of MAF voltage because, like you said, several parameters need to be met for the car to go into open loop.

Maybe it can be close enough to work. How would one go about figuring out what MAF voltage or MAF count is present when open loop occurs?

 

[turbov6joe]

Exactly. I need the methanol to spray when the car enters open loop. I don't need the methanol when in closed loop. I am getting injection during closed loop and the car falls flat. I need to find out what the MAF count of MAF voltage is when the car goes into open loop. That is not an exact science. The car goes into open loop at a range of MAF voltage because, like you said, several parameters need to be met for the car to go into open loop.

Maybe it can be close enough to work. How would one go about figuring out what MAF voltage or MAF count is present when open loop occurs?

I would start by data logging numerous pulls and watch the MAF voltage/counts to see where the transition is. I'm sure that any SCT tuner with the corporate software has the ability to watch all of these events at once, and can compare where that "sweet" spot is. I'd imagine that should get you real close if not spot on. Next thing you'll have to finger out is exactly how much meth you need to spray to accomplish the goal of ZERO detonation based off of X psi + X timing + X octane + X rpm + a/f ratio...etc. As I'm sure you know, every car is different than the next. What works on your ride may not work on mine. Keep me posted as to your findings, I'll be calling Julio in the near future to go down this same road. With a solid tune for meth injection, NOS will be obsolete IMO. You can get MUCH further power wise (safely) on this stuff than NOS would ever be able to. One pther thing I forgot to mention, watch your plugs closely. Meth injection is a different beast, and the plugs one might typically run may not be optimal for your application.

 

[Apicia]

The problem lies in the fact that if your in 4th gear, at 2k rpm, and press the pedal to the floor, your going into WOT. If your in 2nd gear, at 4k rpm, and press the pedal to the floor, your going into WOT. The MAF count and/or MAF voltage is different in those two scenarios. I think the MAF activator is for turbo or centri cars.