meth injection

[Darufe]

So ive been reading left and right about this but I still need more info.

Ais trunk mount stage 2 3 gallon kit seems very nice!

Then I looked at aquamist and it seems like a more advanced system

But then you get to choose jets according to hp and blablabla
Im a bit confused.

Doesnt seem like 1200-1400hp can be reached when I look at the charts they have?

Mmr was recommending a minimum of meth injection on the 10:1 cr motor im looking to have built.


Also how big of a tank do I need to be able to go through atleast a full tank before having to fill?
Id probably just go windshield washer fluid for price and availability.

I defenatly want a trunk mount kit, the turbos keep the engine bay way too hot and I want a big tank. Besides the turbos made it noze heavy enough as it is

Wish I could just have e85 everywhere..uhhh

 

[Voltwings]

You'll typically lose atomization much over a 7 gph nozzle, and it takes pump pressure of about 200-250 psi for ideal atomization as well. For that reason, I dont know that a single nozzle is enough to support 1200-1400 whp, you'll likely need some sort of direct port set up. I had a direct port set up on my old 4 cylinder, with 4, 3 gallon per hour nozzles, and that was fine for a single pump. I have a feeling however, those HP goals, over 8 cylinders will likely need a dual pump set up to maintain the flow.

That being said, i would not deal with windshield washer fluid at those power levels either. Not all fluids are safe, because some have detergents and crap in them... Your best bet is just to use methanol, or denatured alcohol (typically 80% ethanol 20% methanol) from the hardware store if you cant get meth. I really enjoy methanol tuning and reading, so i dont mind answering any questions (to the best of my abilities) you may have. Granted my background is in turbo 4 cylidners, i feel the principles are more or less the same.

Also, as far as how large of a tank you need to last 1 tank of gas depends on how the methanol is tuned / how you drive. You would want a progressive controller, be it MAF signal based (my personal prefference) or boost based, and that really determines how much you use. On stock turbo 4 cylidners i tune, i have the start spray set around 5-7 psi since they spool so fast, and the full spray to come in around 15-18 psi so its spraying full blast during the pull. For larger turbo cars however, i typically set the start spray to around 12-15 psi (so you can brake boost about 10 psi without it spraying) and set full to around 18-22 depending on how much boost is being run. You can see based on driving style / WOT habits, these cars will go through meth at 2 very different rates.

Trunk mount kits are also the best i feel, because they often include a baffle of some sort to insure methanol is near the pick up under throttle. I myself am partial to Devils Own kits, but thats not to say there arent other quality kits out there.

 

[Darufe]

Or.....I guess I could run dual injectors dual fuel cells and standalone efi like a bigstuff3 and buy pure ethanol for the second cell and essentially have on the fly race fuel but were talking hmmm lets see
Another set of id1000 a bigstuff 3 more pumps more hoses and a large fuel cell in the trunk second set of fuel rails...
So probably 6k+ vs 1.5k for an awesome meth injection system.

Much harder to tune from what I gather so more money there too...

But then I got a motor that can rev to 9-9.5k rpm that can probably produce even craaaaazier hp.
Doubt the t56 will enjoy 9.5k rpm shifts without modification...or the crazy torque...ds probably wont be stronf enough for that nor the 33 spline axles..
Clutch def wont hold either...

Ok meth sounds good all of a sudden haha



God why cant I make more money?! Seems every time I look at stuff I gotta go bigger then originaly planned...

 

[Darufe]

Hmmm so im guessing a direct port system with dual pumps will probably run me near 2.5k to set up?

Making the dual injecror setup sound not that much more expensive....:/

Probably safer this way and im thinking my id1000 will not really cut it alone.
I hear id2000 are hard to tune for low boost/power street setups
So going dual cell with a full tank of alc or meth and 2 sets of id1000 might give me the best of bth worlds?

 

[Voltwings]

Well a good Devils own kit with steel braided lines and a single pump will run you ~$700 or so, so even just adding another pump i dont see you spending much more than $1000 or so. To add my direct port set up with steel braided lines and everything was $150, so double that roughly assuming a V8 and you're at ~1300-1500. Hell, i'm bored at work, i'll price something out real quick.

Edit: Pricing everything out separatly i came up with about $1100. Granted, it is possible i forgot 1 or 2 things, but typically when you call they're real good about making package deals. I always called to place my orders instead of going through the webiste, since the steel braided lines can get a bit tricky.

Stage 2, 3 bar MAP sensor kit (no tank): $395.95
300 psi pump (extra): $134.95
2X Direct port manifolds with fittings: $127.90
AN- T fitting (for the 2 direct port manifolds): $15.95
AN Check valve (may want more, or to upgrade to a solenoid): $32.95
10x 8" Steel braided lines (2 for the manifolds, 8 for the runners): $133.60
Steel braided main line upgrade: $95.95
2.25 gallon baffled "race tank": $134.95

Again, i may have forgotten a few things, and you may get some sort of package deal discount, but thats honestly not bad ...

 

[Gremlin85]

Don't forget your flow gauge. Very important.

 

[Darufe]

What about systems based off injector duty cycle like aquamist?
Seems as though that would be more consistent/safe
And im pretty sure id want more like a 5-7 gallon tank and as much failsafe as possible.

Currently with my limited flow I start spooling just under 2k rpm btw

 

[nosscort]

a 3 gallon tank on the lsx vettes that my buddies builds with spraying straight m1 starting at 3 -5 lbs of boost last months.. not sure why you would need such a big tank?

 

[Darufe]

Hmm I dunno I read somewhere a 3 gallon water meth mix would last about one 20 minute road course?

 

[Voltwings]

Well again, each car will have different flow needs, and a road course you're literally spraying the entire time, not a few bursts of speed that last seconds. You can get a kit that runs off IDC, but again, one that is MAF based is my personal favorite, because if you think about it, its essentially the same thing... I did at least 1 datalog a day, and maybe a handful of pick up races here and there, and spraying 7 gph starting at 12 psi and full spray at around 20 psi my tank lasted about 2 months. Obviously if you're doing multiple pulls every day and spraying much more than 7 gph your results will vary significantly. The best thing you can do is just call and talk to people, its their job to know this stuff after all haha and they have probably seen their products used in MANY different scenarios.

They also make failsafes that route into your BOV and will kick it open if they detect a drop in flow. You can make a meth system as "budget" or bullet proof as you feel like.

 

[Darufe]

Guess ill havr to make some calls...

Any insight on meth vs going dual injectors?

And who makes the best/ most bulletproof systems?
Im dropping almost 20k on the motor and im already 20-25k into the other stuff so bulletproof is important lol

 

[Voltwings]

If bullet proof is what you want, then do how we used to do on our Direct Injection cars when we ran out of fuel.

Basically, you add 2 (or however many you need) 1000cc (or however big you need) injectors in the charge pipe that feed off the factory fuel system. These injectors are controlled by a separate computer that splices into your MAF to know how to inject. I have a spreadsheet that i made that literally does the math for me, i plug my Target AFR in, Fuel gravity, number of injectors, and size of the injectors and it spits out an injector pulse width for each RPM at each MAF voltage. Just program the box and those 2 extra injectors fire just like your stock ones.

The added benefit here however, is that the fuel introduced in the charge stream will actively cool the air as well, even straight 93. My car was knock limited at about 370 whp on straight 93, around 21 psi or so. I added 2 additional injectors, and still on just 93 octane i was able to push to just over 400 whp, at around 25 psi or so. So not only is this system programmable, it runs off your stock fuel system, and is much less moving parts if you ask me... less to go wrong.

Either of these systems could have mechanical failsafes (which is probably best) but you can also talk to your tuner about Iat2 flags. Like i said, both these systems will actively cool the charge air, so if it stops spraying and my IAT2s end up outside a zone i have specified, it pulls like 10* of timing. Enough to get your attention and let out before you potentially damage the motor. For simplicity sake i would see about just adding the injectors... a lot less could fail in that case.

 

[Darufe]

Hmmm ive been reading more and more and im kinda looking kore toqards dual rails dual injectors woth a secondary fuel cell running either pure meth or race fuel on boost.
Wondering exactly what id need for that and cost.
Could get away with a relatively small secondary injector (25-30% of what my primary injectors from what I gather)
Dont really wanna mess with a brand spanking new road runner intake manifold by taping it and crap....


Any thoughs on a system like that?

From what ive been reading 50/50 water/meth is awesome for detonation prevention at semi lowish boost but high boost applications do much better on pure meth injection (like 5-10 psi more and much faster 1/4 times and trap speeds vs water/meth)

Other thing is meth injection setups seem to all be labeled as comp use not for highway use blablabla
Easily spotted under hood.
Dual injectors youe have to check whats in the fuel cell to really know whats going on. And can run just race gas in there for safety reasons on the road.

 

[Voltwings]

Secondary fuel rail systems are an excellent choice as well, just expensive. You gotta pay to play (as i'm sure you know by now), and thats probably hands down the best bet, but i'd also bet at least 2x the cost of the others. The thing about WMI injection is "it really just depends."

A lot of people think you add water to the methanol to "tame it down" since meth is incredibly flammable, but its actually the other way around. WMI was introduced in fighter planes during WW2, and the water was the chemical intercoolent, the methanol was just added to keep it from freezing at high altitude. Water has over 2x the latent heat of methanol, meaning it can absorb twice as much heat energy before vaporizing, which makes it very effective as a chemical intercoolent. However, if any unburned water gets into the combustion chamber, its now displacing either fuel or oxygen and can actually lower your effective hp. Methanol releases oxygen when vaporized / burned, so it actually can increase the power potential in and of itself, it just may not be as effective at cooling. Since methanol has a really high octane however, the charge air being cooler really isn't as big of an issue.

I really dont think you can go wrong with any system, its just which is "best" for you, you know.

 

[CPRsm]

Why not an intercooler up to what you're looking for? Are you trying to make 12-1400 on pump ?

 

[Darufe]

I want to be ablw to drive it around on semi low boost and easily switch to full race mode and do 1000+ at the wheels (hopefully 1200)

But im running id1000s so im gonna need to upgrade those anyway.
Im already getting an mmr roadrunner intake wich can be easily setup for dual rails/injectors

Im a bit concerned about the fuel management portion of all this (and its cost)

 

[Darufe]

Well ive contacted aquamist and mmr.
I can get the intake pre setup for the kit and aquamiat is piecing up a costom setup with proper jets/manifolds etc etc
Waiting on prices.

 

[Voltwings]

So direct port methanol on the roadrunner intake? Sounds wicked, keep us posted.

 

[Darufe]

Yessir! Upgraded pump and jets big enough to do 100% meth if I want
Should be epic!!

 

[Voltwings]

What size nozzles are they looking at setting you up with?