Long/short blocks

[Mike_Hawk]

I need some help. Here's the situation:

-Cobra needs new engine
-I'm thinking built shortblock and upgraded revised heads
-Earl's says reman. longblock from Ford and upgrade the heads that come with it
-I'm running really short on money and need the best cost effective solution
-KB 2.2L @ 17psi is going in along with a bunch of other goodies

I need to know what to do, what people to go with for a built shortblock, or just go with Ford reman.? Trying to keep things under 5 or 6k. Reman. long block is around 4,200 more or less.

Stick with a stock bottom end? Built?

This is all killing me. I've never had to deal with this and I don't want to make a bad mistake or something I could've done better.

Sorry it's confusing, I don't even know how to start asking questions :shrug:

 

[Mike_Hawk]

Maybe it'll help so here are the final mods, plus mods in sig:

Kenne Bell 2.2l supercharger
Reichard Racing supercharger spacer
Billetflow 2.93" black non-slip pulley
Billetflow 4-pulley idler kit and bracket
Diablosport Revolutions chip
Diablosport MAF.ia
NGK TR6 spark plugs
PA Performance 130amp alternator
Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump

Liberty’s Gears 26-spline input shaft
Centerforce DFX clutch and pressure plate
Fidanza aluminum flywheel
Centerforce throw-out bearing
Fiore quadrant & firewall adjuster
LDC clutch freeplay correction kit
Royal Purple Synchromax transmission fluid

Billetflow differential cover brace
Billetflow subframe brackets
Steeda subframe bushings
MM swaybar bushings
JDM pinion snubber (yeah, I know, but I got a good deal, so why not?)

LDC cooling mod
LFP radiator
LFP heat exchanger
LFP intercooler tank

 

[stangd1909]

One hell of a mod list! IMO I would keep the stock block do .20 over with some upgraded pistons

 

[BLWN03]

www.Modularmustangracing.com

I have their street mod 900 shortblock in my car and i love it...quieter than it was from the factory.

 

[Mike_Hawk]

www.Modularmustangracing.com

I have their street mod 900 shortblock in my car and i love it...quieter than it was from the factory.

I think I've found my shortblock! Did you get a Romeo or Windsor block?

I'm thinking of doing the Mod 900 with ARP head studs, MMR/Felpro head gaskets, and MMR oil pump. Should I do the +.20 or .30 bore?

How about the solid motor mounts? 7qt oil pan?

Do I need the ARP main studs?

So many questions! :read:

 

[stangd1909]

www.Modularmustangracing.com

I have their street mod 900 shortblock in my car and i love it...quieter than it was from the factory.

Dam not bad......what is the hp rating for the mod 900?

 

[ShelbyGuy]

if you're really that tight on money, then return the kb2.2, the radiator, and the clutch bits.

 

[Quick Strike]

You know your Cobra short block already has the goods in the MMR 900 model minus ARP bolts and better pistons. A good machine shop should be able to check your shortblock, machine your block, check and polish your crank, update the rods and balance your assembly for around $700. Then you would have the cost of pistons, rings, bolts and bearings totaling $800 or so. If you do the final assenbly yourself there would be no more costs. That is about a $1500 savings over the MMR 900 right there! Add main studs, line bore and better rods and you are still $500 under the cost of the MMR 900, but have the MMR 1100 shortblock.

 

[WDW MKR]

You know your Cobra short block already has the goods in the MMR 900 model minus ARP bolts and better pistons. A good machine shop should be able to check your shortblock, machine your block, check and polish your crank, update the rods and balance your assembly for around $700. Then you would have the cost of pistons, rings, bolts and bearings totaling $800 or so. If you do the final assenbly yourself there would be no more costs. That is about a $1500 savings over the MMR 900 right there! Add main studs, line bore and better rods and you are still $500 under the cost of the MMR 900, but have the MMR 1100 shortblock.

A good machine shop will charge nearly $3k to machine your stocker, upgrade the pistons and hardware, add ARP head and main studs, and replace all bearings. That's all assuming that you reuse your block, crank and rods. You can save money doing the assembly, but a lot of people don't have the ability and/or desire for shortblock work.

I wouldn't spend money on a remanufactured stock shortblock that will have the same inherent issues with PTW clearance, low-grade rod bolts and bearing failures. Your best bet would be to buy a new shortblock and the updated heads, then sell as much of the stocker as you can to help offset the cost. Good condition heads will bring $500-800. The crank will bring $250-350. If the block isn't hurt, it will bring $100-200. Straight rods will probably get you another $300-400.

 

[Blaine]

A good machine shop will charge nearly $3k to machine your stocker, upgrade the pistons and hardware, add ARP head and main studs, and replace all bearings. That's all assuming that you reuse your block, crank and rods. You can save money doing the assembly, but a lot of people don't have the ability and/or desire for shortblock work.

I wouldn't spend money on a remanufactured stock shortblock that will have the same inherent issues with PTW clearance, low-grade rod bolts and bearing failures. Your best bet would be to buy a new shortblock and the updated heads, then sell as much of the stocker as you can to help offset the cost. Good condition heads will bring $500-800. The crank will bring $250-350. If the block isn't hurt, it will bring $100-200. Straight rods will probably get you another $300-400.

+2 He's right. Unless you know someone. That short block deal they have for that motor is Really good, and there is no core charge. ;-)

I'm thinking of doing the same thing when I fix the tick on my car.

 

[Quick Strike]

+2 He's right. Unless you know someone.

No He's not. I just had this done to my 425 Buick short block. These engines are similar in that they are iron blocks with forged cranks and rods, but the Buick has weak cast pistons in place of the tight forged Cobra pistons. The total matching bill was $750 and would not be any different for a 4.6. Actually, there is less to do to a 4.6. The machining bill included: remove freeze plugs, remove gallery plugs, cook block, clean for cam bearings (Buick specific), install cam bearings (Buick specific), check cam runout and fit, hone bores to size with torque plate, square deck, install gallery plugs, install freeze plug, cook crank, mag inspect crank, radius crank oil holes, balance crank w/assembly, polish crank, press pistons off rods, glassbead rods, install ARP rod bolts and recondition rods, thermofit pistons, reface flywheel and balance pressure plate to flywheel.

The outlay for parts was around $800 for pistons, molly rings, main and rod bearings, HV oil pump and rod bolts. That is a $1550 total for a more uncommon (expensive) short block built with very similar machining and parts as the 4.6 would require for the MMR 900. Add $150 or so for a line bore, $500 for good rods and I even give you $100 for main studs and you have the basic MMR 1100 for $2300 in parts and labor using your core cobra crank and block. That is $1300 less then MMR wants for a similar short block. Then you could sell your rods and gain another few hundred bucks back too on them as well. The only point I am trying to make here is that there is a lot to be saved by rounding up the parts you need, using the parts you already have, limiting you machinist to what you need and doing you own final assembly. Believe me, there is no way I could have afforded to buy some of the engines I have built for myself.

 

[WDW MKR]

I've priced 4.6L rebuilds from respectable builders, and they were nowhere close to what you have listed. ARP main studs are over $200, not $100. The rods will cost you more than $500 if you want Manley rods with ARP2000 bolts. I think your example may not be completely compatible with a Modular build. I was quoted $2500-3000 to add only CP pistons, rings, ARP2000 rod bolts, ARP main studs, machining and all new bearings... everything else would be reused. This quote was similar amongst various shops.

 

[Quick Strike]

I've priced 4.6L rebuilds from respectable builders, and they were nowhere close to what you have listed.

My point exactly! You priced a rebuild: not machining and parts. If you do your own assembly and buy your own parts, it cuts costs significantly. I may be a a little off on the total self build, but not by more then a few hundered at most. BTW - Summit has the Manley rods with the ARP bolts for $570 and the ARP main stud kit for $160. I had $75 for the rod bolts already in the total so I would say my $500 rod price is very close. I am sure you could do better on these items if you looked around some more. All I am saying is that rebuilders are selling you the service, time and assembly as well, and that these costs can be eliminated. Tell me about it again when you have built a few engines yourself!

 

[WDW MKR]

Time is money... many people do not have the ability or desire to assemble a shortblock. That's why it is more accurate to compare a rebuild with and total shelf build, and not a home assembly. It is certainly a great way to save money if you have the means to do it.

Those Manley rods do not include the ARP2000 bolts. They use the lower grade bolts, which is what is already in our engines. Also, I think that is the hex main stud kit. The 12pt is a bit more, which is what I prefer.

As far as "telling you about it when I have built a few," this conversation can do without smartass remarks. You were referencing a home assembly when everyone else was comparing a rebuild to a shelf build. My numbers are accurate for what someone would pay to have their engine rebuilt, which shows the shelf build to be a very economical choice. Selling your stock parts makes it even better.

 

[BiG22DuBz]

Definitely sounds like you're going to build a beast! But I will warn you about Earl. He does great work if you pay him a shit load of money or else he becomes a bit lazy. Contact Brian Shapiro at B&D Racing in Canoga Park and see what he can do. (818) 992-FAST (3278). Mention my name an get a greater discount too.

-Andy..with the blown expedition!

 

[Quick Strike]

Those Manley rods do not include the ARP2000 bolts. They use the lower grade bolts, which is what is already in our engines. Also, I think that is the hex main stud kit. The 12pt is a bit more, which is what I prefer.

The Manley rods Summit has do have ARP bolts. Here is a link to the particulars. The main studs look to be standard hex nuts, but should hold the same regardless. OK, the links are not working correctly, but you can use what I gave to search them out if you like.

As far as "telling you about it when I have built a few," this conversation can do without smartass remarks.

Agreed! It just seemed like I was doing a lot of writing and research to make my point.

 

[BLWN03]

Dam not bad......what is the hp rating for the mod 900?

900 flywheel HP....I must also add the gang over there is awesome to deal with..and i personally spoke with Mark Luton on what i had palnned for the car and he sent me in the direction i need to go....i esentially have the street mod 1100 as well with the mainstuds added in there..i just did them as a option.

Jay

 

[WDW MKR]

The Manley rods Summit has do have ARP bolts.

Again, those are not ARP2000 bolts. They are the standard ARP bolts that aren't nearly as strong. The 8740 pieces are used in the stock 03/04 Cobra shortblock.

It's all just splitting hairs. The fact remains that for someone not doing every last bit of assembly, the built shortblocks available from the top vendors (VT, MMR, MP, MPH) are a very econmincal option. If you can sell your stock shortblock before it is damaged, the offset will enable you to purchase a built shortblock for cheaper than you can have the stocker rebuilt. I did exactly that.

 

[Quadcammer]

forget a shortblock.

all you need is new pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and retaining hardware.

pistons and rings, 820 for CP.
arp 2000 bolts for stock rods=100
160 for fed mogul hp bearings
120 for new stock hg
350 for head and main studs
500 for machine working including balancing.
280 for billet oil gears.
300 for additional stuff
250 for shortblock assembly.

adds up to right around 3k, and your get arp head studs and billet oil gears, in addition to not having to pay for shipping.

its also using a higher quality piston.

 

[WDW MKR]

forget a shortblock.

all you need is new pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and retaining hardware.

pistons and rings, 820 for CP.
arp 2000 bolts for stock rods=100
160 for fed mogul hp bearings
120 for new stock hg
350 for head and main studs
500 for machine working including balancing.
280 for billet oil gears.
300 for additional stuff
250 for shortblock assembly.

adds up to right around 3k, and your get arp head studs and billet oil gears, in addition to not having to pay for shipping.

its also using a higher quality piston.

Nevermind... forgot that his engine is already hurt.