L&M 78mm Throttle Body on a KB?

[blueovalkid]

Not looking to start controversy here just wondered if anyone has tried the L&M 78mm Throttle Body on a KB.
Its supposed to be a direct bolt on replacement for the KB twin 75mm.
L and M Airflow

 

[dirtyo2000]

doesn't seem like it would be needed. The 72mm can support anything on the street level but for an all out racecar might be interesting. I know the 72 hangs up so the 78 would probably be worst

 

[tktlwyr]

doesn't seem like it would be needed. The 72mm can support anything on the street level but for an all out racecar might be interesting. I know the 72 hangs up so the 78 would probably be worst

The one thing that sets the L&M apart from the others is the design. Hold it up next to another manufacturer's unit and it will become evident that the L&M will flow better.

I can't compare the L&M and the KB throttle bodies because I don't have a KB. I do have a Whipple 2.9, however, and the 72mm works like a champ and gave me 1 lb of boost over the 66mm at my power level.

Can you please clarify your statement that the "72 hangs up"? Mine has PERFECT driveability. If your tuner has made change to certain parameters in your tune, then you will have to tune for the throttle body.

Merry Xmas!

 

[dirtyo2000]

It hangs up on idle like the throttle blades are catching on the body of the TB. Did it before the tune and it was tuned by one of the best so I trust the tuner. I know a few others that do the same thing. Maybe there was a bad batch. The spring could be to weak on return. The motor may not be able to fully close I don't know but there are a few out there that are doing it. No problems with the 66 though.

 

[blueovalkid]

doesn't seem like it would be needed. The 72mm can support anything on the street level but for an all out racecar might be interesting. I know the 72 hangs up so the 78 would probably be worst

I believe you have to use an adapter to run the 72mm L&M with the KB Stage III where as the 78mm you do not

 

[mblgjr]

.

 

[DavidHasselhoff]

It's in your tune I'm pretty sure. Mine is "hanging up" right now, but my tuner said he can fix that in the tune. I could be wrong though. IDK this shit too well.

 

[Blackmax]

When I had the "hanging up" with my 72 Jim at L&M bent over backwards to help me out. He even sent me the T.B. off his own car on a rush courier and picked up the bill. He didn't even ask for a deposit.lol I know its a bit finniky and I hope not to have the problem now that I have a 2.9 Whipple with 123 maf. Dennis Gomes at Tasca should be able to help.

 

[blackshelby]

It is all in the tune.

If the tune is using ford parameters(TB maps dashpot effective throttle etc) and the most important parameter the CORRECT MAF CURVE
the 66 or the 72 will work as designed, and act exactly like the stock TB

They only become tricky when these parameters are not used.

I have help out a few people already, getting their issue/tunes corrected.

I have even swapped out TB's with people to make sure it wasn't a TB issue itself and tested the TB when we get them back. Some I even tested on cars before I sent back to make sure there was no question about the TB.
98 percent of the time there is nothing wrong with the TB and is tune related.

You will have issues

If your tuner does not use a real maf curve (One like ford uses or a maf curve that was created from a flow bench only.) that is the only way and is the only correct way a MAF curve should be created and used in a tune .(This is the way Ford, GM etc and any person who really understand A MAF systems)

This is why the TB's are plug and play if a Ford tune is used.(and not always plug and play in some aftermarket tunes).

Issue will arise when a tune with a teak maf curve or a better way to say it, has an incorrect MAF curve in the tune is used in the car.
Most maf curve are created by these tuners using short terms or tweaking a known good MAF curve in the tune to correct an A/f ratio.
Some can get it close but never perfect using this method(load tables etc will never be 100 percent accurate)
Any tuner that does their tuning like this is wrong.
It is not the correct way to create an accurate MAF curve , period...

One way good way, to tell if your tuner is tuning like this if he keeps asking you to datalog short terms Most of the time if they are asking for that(unless maybe you changed your injectors) they are tweaking the MAF curve in your tune. If they had a accurate MAF curve to start off with, the short terms would be on the money 99 percent of the time.


Why because all the a/f calculations starts with the reading or signal measured by the maf meter.Every calculation and adjustment the computer does starts from the reading the MAF sends to the computer.



These methods are followed by most of these tuners which some say are the best tuners out there.(which are wrong and is why some see these issues).

Some of these tuners even tweak a known good MAF curve (a Ford MAF curve)in their tunes to adjust for an incorrect A/F ratio instead of adjusting the correct parameters in the tune.


If your tuner still insist the TB needs a tune if they really are as good as they say they are then honestly they should be able to correct any issue you have.

The only way that tuner will never be able to correct it, if that tuner is tuning like I stated above. (and really is tuning wrong no matter how good anybody thinks they are)

 

[blackshelby]

I believe you have to use an adapter to run the 72mm L&M with the KB Stage III where as the 78mm you do not

That is correct.

 

[DavidHasselhoff]

It is all in the tune.

If the tune is using ford parameters(TB maps dashpot effective throttle etc) and the most important parameter the CORRECT MAF CURVE
the 66 or the 72 will work as designed, and act exactly like the stock TB

They only become tricky when these parameters are not used.

I have help out a few people already, getting their issue/tunes corrected.

I have even swapped out TB's with people to make sure it wasn't a TB issue itself and tested the TB when we get them back. Some I even tested on cars before I sent back to make sure there was no question about the TB.
98 percent of the time there is nothing wrong with the TB and is tune related.

You will have issues

If your tuner does not use a real maf curve (One like ford uses or a maf curve that was created from a flow bench only.) that is the only way and is the only correct way a MAF curve should be created and used in a tune .(This is the way Ford, GM etc and any person who really understand A MAF systems)

This is why the TB's are plug and play if a Ford tune is used.(and not always plug and play in some aftermarket tunes).

Issue will arise when a tune with a teak maf curve or a better way to say it, has an incorrect MAF curve in the tune is used in the car.
Most maf curve are created by these tuners using short terms or tweaking a known good MAF curve in the tune to correct an A/f ratio.
Some can get it close but never perfect using this method(load tables etc will never be 100 percent accurate)
Any tuner that does their tuning like this is wrong.
It is not the correct way to create an accurate MAF curve , period...

One way good way, to tell if your tuner is tuning like this if he keeps asking you to datalog short terms Most of the time if they are asking for that(unless maybe you changed your injectors) they are tweaking the MAF curve in your tune. If they had a accurate MAF curve to start off with, the short terms would be on the money 99 percent of the time.


Why because all the a/f calculations starts with the reading or signal measured by the maf meter.Every calculation and adjustment the computer does starts from the reading the MAF sends to the computer.



These methods are followed by most of these tuners which some say are the best tuners out there.(which are wrong and is why some see these issues).

Some of these tuners even tweak a known good MAF curve (a Ford MAF curve)in their tunes to adjust for an incorrect A/F ratio instead of adjusting the correct parameters in the tune.


If your tuner still insist the TB needs a tune if they really are as good as they say they are then honestly they should be able to correct any issue you have.

The only way that tuner will never be able to correct it, if that tuner is tuning like I stated above. (and really is tuning wrong no matter how good anybody thinks they are)

That's what my buddy said was the problem. There's something that needs to be tuned called the dashpot. He said you can't really tune it on the dyno, but after driving it on the street for a while if you have that issue you just the dashpot accordingly. My idle stays high sometimes when I shift to neutral rolling to a light. It can stay anywheres from 1500 rpms to 1000 rpms and will sit there for ~10 or sometimes even ~20 secs before it goes down to normal idle which is ~750-800.

 

[blackshelby]

That's what my buddy said was the problem. There's something that needs to be tuned called the dashpot. He said you can't really tune it on the dyno, but after driving it on the street for a while if you have that issue you just the dashpot accordingly. My idle stays high sometimes when I shift to neutral rolling to a light. It can stay anywheres from 1500 rpms to 1000 rpms and will sit there for ~10 or sometimes even ~20 secs before it goes down to normal idle which is ~750-800.

Dashpots can help.

It should act like stock.

Stock dashpots will stay at about 1100-1300 or so until the car is fully stop then should take a couple seconds to drop to idle(that's is the way Ford has it setup)

Ford does allot with their dashpots to help with shifting, clutch life, stalling etc.

If someone does not like the way Ford has the dashpots setup, absolutely they can be changed to their own liking.

If its hanging or doing other things, then most likely it is the issue I stated above.(explaining the MAF curve)

 

[Blackmax]

Unfortunately the tuners here all use Predator and there are no good tunes to overcome this problem. I'm going to give it one more shot with my new blower and 123 intake. Its not a problem if racing only but driving around town its not good. Dennis at Tasca told me they were working on Predator tunes to overcome issue but I haven't heard anything back. I'll let you know what happens.

 

[dirtyo2000]

Shoot and I was getting use to it. Doesn't do it all the time just in a bunch of stop and go traffic. If I sit the car in the drive way and keep tapping the throttle it will hang like the blades are not returning back to the closed position.

I had my brother do it a few times and once it hangs (around 1400-2000rpms) you can take your finger and tab the throttle body and it will idle down. You can tap the gas a few times and it will come back down. I was told that since the blades of the throttle body are so much heavier than the stock blades the motor couldn't compensate. One reason I was researching a stronger motor in my sparetime to replace it with.

My brothers 08 does the same thing and he just learned to live with it. It so rare that it does it that I can overlook it but when it does, it's more annoyiong than anything. Will look into it an talk to the appropriate people. Thanks a lot guys, that's the only negative thing I can say about this car lol. I give Ford the 2 thumbs up on this one.

 

[mblgjr]

Dirtyyo: It's doesn't have anything at all to do with the blades or the TB unit.

 

[blackshelby]

Shoot and I was getting use to it. Doesn't do it all the time just in a bunch of stop and go traffic. If I sit the car in the drive way and keep tapping the throttle it will hang like the blades are not returning back to the closed position.

I had my brother do it a few times and once it hangs (around 1400-2000rpms) you can take your finger and tab the throttle body and it will idle down. You can tap the gas a few times and it will come back down. I was told that since the blades of the throttle body are so much heavier than the stock blades the motor couldn't compensate. One reason I was researching a stronger motor in my sparetime to replace it with.

My brothers 08 does the same thing and he just learned to live with it. It so rare that it does it that I can overlook it but when it does, it's more annoyiong than anything. Will look into it an talk to the appropriate people. Thanks a lot guys, that's the only negative thing I can say about this car lol. I give Ford the 2 thumbs up on this one.

The blades and rotation weight on the L&M 66 and 72 are dramatically lighter verse the stock TB blade asm. (just about 2/3 the weight verse the stock one)
We used different materials (higher quality and much more expensive) verse the stock asm to achieve this.(allot of attention went into this area)


Is also take less force(has less resistance) to turn the blades on the L&M verse the stock asm.
The bearings are much higher quality used in the L&M verse the stock TB asm.


If the blades were sticking even just slightly you would definitely be throwing codes and going into fail-safe.
Some tunes or what is done in a tune can also cause the same codes, but again if it was an issue that the blades were actually sticking you would have codes and fail-safe issues for sure.

If you ever have a stock TB and a L&M in your hand with no motor or TP asm turn both of them.
Its real noticeable, that the L&M is easier to turn then the stock one.

 

[dirtyo2000]

Hey don't get me wrong never said anything negative about the TB I love mine. Got me over the 700hp hump with no problem. I will defintely get in touch with the tuner and let him know whats going on. Hopefully it will be an easy fix. Sad thing is I will never get to know anytime soon. 16inches of snow and still rising:cryying: