Is it legal for on-duty police officers to go around the parking lots of bars and put a chalk-marking x on the headlights of vehicles, then have someone else patrol the area around these bars looking for the x's and pull them over for suspected DUI? I am just curious because I have seen them doing this a few times in the area where I live recently and do not see any possible way this could be legal.
Is this legal?
- Thread starter poorboy
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The marking in and of itself is probably legal. Stopping a car just because it has a mark placed on it is a whole different story.
If you are DWI and are pulled over only because of a mark on your car not because the officer had any other reason to pull you over(swerving, wide right turn, speeding etc...), tested and arrested you would have a good challenge in court.
Hillie, you're a DWI guy, what do you think?
If you are DWI and are pulled over only because of a mark on your car not because the officer had any other reason to pull you over(swerving, wide right turn, speeding etc...), tested and arrested you would have a good challenge in court.
Hillie, you're a DWI guy, what do you think?
What is the legal justification for marking a vehicle? I would think that marking someone's property, and especially without any warrant or probable cause, could be construed as vandalism. I would not be happy if I caught anyone, LEO or otherwise, putting markings on my car.
Let me add another question: if an officer observed you leaving an establishment where adult beverages are sold, but observed no erratic behavior on your part, there would be no probable cause to pull you over. So having the "X" on your car is the same as just having knowledge you left such an establishment. Where is the cause for a stop absent erratic driving?
And if the "X" is left on your vehicle, you could be stopped again and again, without any probable cause.
Let me add another question: if an officer observed you leaving an establishment where adult beverages are sold, but observed no erratic behavior on your part, there would be no probable cause to pull you over. So having the "X" on your car is the same as just having knowledge you left such an establishment. Where is the cause for a stop absent erratic driving?
And if the "X" is left on your vehicle, you could be stopped again and again, without any probable cause.
I never heard of that tactic. The legal justification is probably based in the same theory as marking tires. It is not damage to vehicle and can be removed simply or will dissapate over time without permanent harm to the vehicle. So it is not vandalism.
That was already answered by SBRO! There would not be PC for making the stop. That would fall under a form of profiling!
I've never heard of that before. No PC for a stop.
This is a tactic employed in the 60's and 70's, but still used by some old timers and small towns. I've always heard of it being a chalk mark on the tire though. That way the officer knew if he marked the cars at 8:30 and there is a car in the lot marked at last call/closing, the guy has supposedly been in there putting them away for a while. It wasn't used as PC for a stop, but as an indicator as to which cars would give you a better chance or nabbing someone for DUI. Someone turned the tables though when he staggered out and fumbled with his keys and looked very hammered while the other patrons were leaving. But when the cop pulled him over he was dry as a bone. The officer asked why he had so much trouble walking etc. in the parking lot if he wasn't drinking??? The man looked at the officer and said "Sir,....I was the designated decoy!!!"
But seriously, The chalk marking is not a wisely used tactic anymore, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.....
But seriously, The chalk marking is not a wisely used tactic anymore, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.....
Thanks for all the posts. It doesn't affect me much, but it's always good to have as much info as you can get regarding legal matters so that you don't go around making a fool of yourself pissing off LEO's by trying to be your own shade-tree lawyer.
I don't agree that putting a mark on someone's property is not vandalism. If I put chalk or soap on my neighbor's car or house, I will be charged with vandalism. My explanation that it will wash off in the next rain will not absolve me from the act. The fact that an LEO does so absent any court order, or probable cause, does not absolve him (or her) from having committed the act.
Well there is precedent for it! At least in NJ/NY. A common accepted practice of marking tires with chalk and up held by the NJ Superior Courts in Ronan v. Washington Township.
I would think that tires are different from headlight, simply because they are consumables. You have to replace your tires, there for, it could be argued that you were giong to discard them anyway... But headlights are quite expensive, and not necessarly designed to be replaced. Even chalk on the headlights stands the chance of damaging them (scratching them in application).
Just my thoughts, though.
High-G
Just my thoughts, though.
High-G
Always need PC. Anything else would just not be right in my book. No DUI or any other charge for that mater is worth violating another persons rights. Just my opinion for what it is worth.
No PC (Probable Cause) no Stop.
No PC (Probable Cause) no Stop.
no that is distruction of my car
I can certainly object to "marking" the vehicle but perhaps the best thing to do to avoid any problems is to have a designated driver.
BAD COP NO DOUGHNUT!!!!!!!! :beer:
JUST SAY NO!!!!
LOL @ that Cartman pic. :lol1:
I know some LEOs will run the plates of vehicles in the parking lot of a late night restaurant (especially on weekends). Never seen anyone mark anything, though. I don't particularly have a problem with it. :shrug:
I know some LEOs will run the plates of vehicles in the parking lot of a late night restaurant (especially on weekends). Never seen anyone mark anything, though. I don't particularly have a problem with it. :shrug:
I've seen people mark tires in parking lots (1 hour parking etc . . .) so they can guage how long the car has been there, but not in a bar. There should be no problem if you're not drunk. If you are, and you're driving . . . you should get caught.
Chalking headlights would be a no no if it happened to my car. Its vandalism because I still have to clean it off and try and not scratch it up.
§ 47-246. Vandalism.
No person shall maliciously, willfully or negligently break, damage, destroy, uncover, deface, tamper with or prevent access to any structure, appurtenance or equipment, or other part of the POTW. Any person found in violation of this requirement shall be subject to the fines, imprisonment and sanctions set forth in this chapter.
(Code 1980, § 41-3.6; Ord. No. 19830, § 1, 9-29-92)
§ 47-246. Vandalism.
No person shall maliciously, willfully or negligently break, damage, destroy, uncover, deface, tamper with or prevent access to any structure, appurtenance or equipment, or other part of the POTW. Any person found in violation of this requirement shall be subject to the fines, imprisonment and sanctions set forth in this chapter.
(Code 1980, § 41-3.6; Ord. No. 19830, § 1, 9-29-92)
Once again Matt, unless there is precedent for it in the law. Then the exclusion exists for that purpose. As I noted there is case law in NJ/NY for the marking of tires and it is not considered vandalism when done in those perimeters.
But once again, thanks for playing our game.
It's Hulk's world, we just pretend to make a difference ;-)
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