Help me understand - bolt ons + 5.0 vs. bolt ons + LS1, 4.6, etc.

[matt5058]

Feel free to correct me on anything in the thread because really I'm just trying to increase my knowledge of my car/our cars (Coyote Stangs), as well as my general car knowledge.

From browsing the forums and reading some bits here and there on the internets, the general consensus seems to be that with the Coyote 5.0, you aren't going to get a lot of gains with the standard bolt on mods, such as a cold air intake, headers, exhaust, etc. without doing a solid tune as well. My experience in the past has been based on modding an LS1 TransAm and helping my friend mod his 2002 Mustang GT with the 2V 4.6. When we did the basic bolt ons, intake, exhaust, headers, throttle body, etc., we saw gains at the track, on the dyno, and felt it when driving/racing. This was done with minimal tuning, if any....I think I had a Hypertech that was used to calibrate the speedo when I had 3.73s installed and I think my buddy's GT wasn't tuned until later on when he had the engine built and added a Procharger.

I remember that the Terminator Cobras were kind of always held as an example of a car that was not only underrated from the factory, but one that could make big power with minimal mods and I guess it made sense to me that a car with a forged engine and a stock blower could be tuned to make a lot more power. I don't seem to recall the 4.6 2V or even the 4.6 4V (Mach 1, NA Cobra) being able to make a lot of big gains with just a tune but they could make some solid gains with the basic bolt ons. Same with the LS1, LS6, etc. I'm not sure on the LS2 because I was out of the car scene for a while, didn't own anything and worked abroad for a few years, didn't pay as much attention to new cars and engines until more recently. I also don't know as much about the 3V 4.6 but I think I read that they take pretty well to bolt ons too.

Anyways, before I ramble on too long...I guess what I'm wondering is what is it exactly about the Coyote 5.0 that makes it different from some of the slightly older engines. Why is that you can see big gains from long tube headers, full exhaust, and intake on a 2V or LS engine, without having to really tune anything, yet on the new 5.0, it seems you can't really get any gains without a tune. This has (I'm not complaining because it has helped me to not immediately spend a bunch of money on mods) stopped me from really buying any parts thus far because I want to make sure that I get a lot for my money when I do start modding, and not put anything on the car that won't make much of a difference, with the exception of a beefier exhaust (like the Roush axle back I have right now).

Yeah, so any feedback or corrections would be greatly appreciated. I really love this car so far and I love that it has a lot of power stock, but I just want to understand more about the limitations and what sets it apart from some other engines as far as modability, tuning, etc.

 

[dirtyd88]

variable valve timing. that's all need be said, imo.

 

[kcsvt94l]

variable valve timing. that's all need be said, imo.

exactly! These coyotes are WAY more advanced than the older vehicles. I.E. Adjusting timing based on knock sensors and such. Variable Valve Timing and Variable Cam Timing is the ABSOLUTE #1. Key to these cars and optimization of both these items make them what they are.

 

[matt5058]

I guess I pretty much knew that these are more advanced/newer engines but...I guess what I don't understand is how the 5.0 doesn't necessarily gain much from long tube headers + full exhaust. I mean, when I was under the car installing the Roush mufflers, I could see that the stock piping is pretty big so I imagine it isn't that restrictive but I guess in my limited knowledge of engines, I assumed that long tubes and a less restrictive exhaust would always be good for solid gains, at least on small block V8s that aren't necessarily maxed out from the factory.

Maybe it's due to me doing more reading on this particular car and not just snatching up mods immediately, but it does really seem like even though the platform has been around for about four years, a lot of people are split on tuning options, bolt on mods, etc. where as I felt with the older Mustangs and LS cars, typically some of these things were considered conventional wisdom (i.e. longtubes make big gains on an LS1, intake + full exhaust on a 4.6 are good for some pretty hefty gains, etc.) and not necessarily disputed as much. I see a lot of back and forth over mods for the 5.0, on other forums but on this forum for sure so it's sometimes tough to know what to believe.

 

[DSG2003SVT]

Here are the basics for aftermarket parts:

Long tubes are your best bang for the buck without going forced induction. You will gain a decent amount of power just bolting them on, but you will absolutely see better results by finding a tuner that will optimize your cam timing for the increase in exhaust primary volume.

Boss or Cobra Jet intake would be the next step. They won't massively increase peak numbers, and you will lose some torque. However, they will increase your usable powerband allowing you to take advantage of lower gears and shift less. You will need a tune adjustment for the intake manifold change.

In my opinion, Comp stage 3 or custom cams would be the next best thing to go for. Obviously, you will need a tune for new cams.

You should be able to gain anywhere from 100-125whp with these items, maybe more. Plus, you will increase your operating range by nearly 1000rpm. You will need supporting parts to handle these changes properly, but those are the basic power makers. I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[charba951]

See sig for mods and HP numbers. Stock cars run what, 360-370 rwhp? Good 50-60 HP from bolt-ons and tune. Shit, best bang for buck mod I've done is nirtrous lol!

 

[matt5058]

Here are the basics for aftermarket parts:

Long tubes are your best bang for the buck without going forced induction. You will gain a decent amount of power just bolting them on, but you will absolutely see better results by finding a tuner that will optimize your cam timing for the increase in exhaust primary volume.

Boss or Cobra Jet intake would be the next step. They won't massively increase peak numbers, and you will lose some torque. However, they will increase your usable powerband allowing you to take advantage of lower gears and shift less. You will need a tune adjustment for the intake manifold change.

In my opinion, Comp stage 3 or custom cams would be the next best thing to go for. Obviously, you will need a tune for new cams.

You should be able to gain anywhere from 100-125whp with these items, maybe more. Plus, you will increase your operating range by nearly 1000rpm. You will need supporting parts to handle these changes properly, but those are the basic power makers. I hope this is helpful to you.

Thanks for the input. Also, charba951, thanks for chiming in as well.

I am still holding off for the time being on doing any mods to the engine but would like to get a tune at some point, with or without additional bolt ons. I guess I'm just trying to get a better grasp of what's possible in terms of making more power without spending a lot of money, and of course as I mentioned, trying to understand the engine/platform better.

DSG, when you say "lower gears" you mean a numerically higher gear ratio, right? I have the stock 3.31s and I don't plan to change them any time soon, but the thought of 3.73s is intriguing, as I loved them in my TA. I drove my friend's 2V GT with both 4.30s and 3.73s. The 4.30s were an absolute blast but when he built the motor and did a ProCharger, he switched to 3.73s.

charba951, I loved having the bottle in my TA and I would definitely love to throw a 100 shot on the 5.0 at some point, just not yet...haha.

 

[Zandura99]

1000 dollars.

Used SCT tuner. 225.
Used Cat Delete/x-pipe 250.
AirRiad CAI 300.
AED remote tune: 250 (if I remember correctly)

Cats good for 20 horse. Tune 8-12, CAI 8-12. Figure 40 horse conservatively. I haven't been back to the dyno, but I know 40 +/- for a grand is a great deal. The debate isn't whether to tune or not, its who to tune with. Just do some supporting mods and the car is completely different.... mine is an M6 and it feels like a beast with these mods.

 

[DSG2003SVT]

I would never consider lower gears (numerically higher) than your 3.31s with the stock intake manifold because the transmission gears in these cars are extremely low. Once you've switched to an intake manifold with a higher operating range, 3.73s or 3.90s would make more sense. I believe that 3.90s put you right at the top of fourth in the quarter mile with a Cobra Jet intake. If you aren't die hard on getting the best quarter mile ET, then 3.31s are a good all around gear and I probably wouldn't change them. Plus, 3.31s are perfect if you're going with nitrous or boost.

I bought my car with 3.73s because I planned to do the intake manifold swap down the road. If I were you, I'd definitely wait until the very end to do a gear swap so that I could match them to my setup and intentions. Get a good e-tune or dyno tune first, then save your money for some long tubes. Skip the Airraid intake in my opinion. Worry about changing that if and when you change intake manifolds.

 

[dirtyd88]

1000 dollars.

Used SCT tuner. 225.
Used Cat Delete/x-pipe 250.
AirRiad CAI 300.
AED remote tune: 250 (if I remember correctly)

Cats good for 20 horse. Tune 8-12, CAI 8-12. Figure 40 horse conservatively. I haven't been back to the dyno, but I know 40 +/- for a grand is a great deal. The debate isn't whether to tune or not, its who to tune with. Just do some supporting mods and the car is completely different.... mine is an M6 and it feels like a beast with these mods.

My car made 415/390 with tune and car deletes essentially.

I did replace my stock intake tube with the new Airraid Modular tube, but little gain was probably had there.

 

[13GT5.0]

MIT tube is probably good for 10 actually.