EDIT: title should say "Got" obviously, but it reads pretty damn funny. Lol
I was at the mall last night with my girlfriend since we both needed some new work clothes, and as I was heading over to meet her at the store she was in, a guy and girl around my age politely stopped and asked me a question. I was in my own world so I didn't hear it and just sort of stopped and nodded recognition of their presence, figuring they were looking for a store or something. Whatever the question, though, their faces lit up when I nodded and they proceeded to ask me if I've noticed all of the terrible crises going on recently around the world, with emphasis on "recently". I first thought, "OK, they want money for some cause or they want to tell me the world is going to end next year." I responded, "Sure, just like they have been for centuries and millenia." Then they asked if I had ever heard of The Seal of God.
Aha, this was gonna be one of THOSE conversations. I'm assuming my tattoos, goatee, and rather bizarre looking tee shirt - along with the fact that I was walking alone - made me stand out as the perfect heathenistic candidate for saving. My gut reaction was to politely inform them that I was not interested and to move along regardless of their reaction, but then I quickly weighed my options: Sit on a bench for the next 30 minutes while my girlfriend tries on clothes at Charlotte Russe, or engage in an entertaining conversation regarding the origins of the universe, the possible existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing deity, and my eternal fate. Option B, it was.
After informing them that I hadn't heard of the seal of God, they enlightened me (being raised Catholic, then Baptist, then Evangelical Free and non-denominational, I of course had, but it's been a LONG time since I brushed up on my Bible studies, so I gave them the opportunity). Basically from what I understood, when Jesus returns, God brands his followers with a seal allowing them into heaven while the rest get marked by the brand of the Devil, or something to that effect. They then explained that every person who is born has a body and a soul. Now this is where it gets interesting. According to them, your soul was actually that of an angel of heaven who was somehow deceived by the devil and/or sinned against God, so as punishment, the soul was sent to Earth, a sort of temporary prison until Jesus returns. I pointed out that this is a much different story than what I'd previously learned and contradicts what I've learned of "original sin", but they seemed ready for it, like my comments were taken straight out of their play book (and it did seem that they were trying to stay one step ahead of me and lead me to where they wanted the conversation to go). They agreed that the idea of original sin doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and they basically responded with the idea that the concept of original sin is wrong and their story is right.
My response was to tell them that I have neither a recollection of my prior existence as an angel of heaven, nor one of my sins committed against God in said existence, so punishing me wouldn't make sense. If you commit a sin that requires punishment but then wipe someone's memory of the entire incident BEFORE punishing them, a punishment is pretty much pointless. Not to mention living a life on Earth seems like anything but a punishment to me (after all, I have no recollection of the supposed better life I lived in heaven since God wiped it out, so there's nothing to compare it to). They now stated that we are not being punished, but I immediately called them on their change in statement (they had previously said we were on Earth as a sort of temporary prison for punishment of sins committed against God). They again said, "No, it's not really a punishment" to which I responded, "But you just said it's a prison, which means it's a punishment."
After some back and forth, we got into the concept of hell and me burning for eternity. I stated that believing in and worshipping a deity who knowingly created a race of beings, the majority of whom he would burn in hell for all eternity, didn't sit right with me and made him sound like an asshole, to be honest. I don't personally think that someone like myself who is a "good" person (subjective, of course) who helps others, has a pleasant demeanor, and doesn't willfully harm others in a physical or mental capacity, should burn forever in a pit of fire and torture. They decided to throw out a belief that I see debated quite often among Christians, stating that I will not burn in hell for all eternity, but I will be punished only for those sins that I've committed, whether that equate to an hour or a week or a year in hell. While I stated that this did make a bit more sense than the simple belief that you either go to one or the other forever, I pointed out that I've personally seen nothing to make me believe that one particular all-powerful deity even exists and that any religion has it "right". They said that this makes sense since you can't believe in something you've never seen proof of (which I guess means they've seen proof), but wouldn't I want to beleive just in case what they're saying is true? I responded with, "Telling yourself you believe in something simply as a precaution doesn't mean you actually believe and, in my mind, wouldn't save you." They replied that I am wrong on this one and that if you tell yourself to believe in something for long enough, eventually you just will.
Before getting into a deeper discussion about this, they moved on to predictions and scientific facts given in the Bible, supposedly long before actual scientific research proved these facts. First, they asked me what the ancients believed in terms of how the Earth is laid out. When I hesitated slightly (trying to figure out where they were going with this), they basically fed me the "Earth is flat" belief. They also pointed out that some civilizations, such as the Greeks, believed the Earth was supported by a giant pillar, or perhaps on the shoulders of Atlas, and that it was the center of the universe. Then they brought up Job 26:7, which states "He stretcheth out the north over empty space, and hangeth the Earth upon nothing." To them, this means that the author of Job, through divine inspiration, knew that the earth was not supported by anything (ie floating in space) and that it was round. I don't really know where they got the round part from unless they forgot to show me another quote, but this whole quote in general seems so vague that it could easily be interpreted multiple ways to support a number of conclusions. I also asked myself what the author might be referring to when he states "the north", and how many times this quote has been translated and copied down over thousands of years. They never did address or contradict the "center of the universe" concept with any quotes or other statements, which I found odd.
Before I really responded, though, they immediately moved on to their next fact. They asked me where the ancients thought rain came from, and again proceeded to feed me my line, basically stating that the Gods were crying, etc. At this point they showed me another passage, Job 36:27: "For He draws up drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist, which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man." They seemed quite pleased by the fact that someone would know this before the advancement of modern science, but I again wondered how many times that quote has been "tweaked" over the years. I also wondered if they realized the central idea could be grasped from simply watching the mist of a waterfall rise up and cling to a cliff or overhang, where water droplets form and then drip down. Is it out of the realm of possibility that someone might conceive the basic idea over the course of thousands of years without the aid of modern science? In my mind, ancient people were bound to get a few things right, but maybe I'm wrong on that. Clearly to these two, the concept of divine inspiration was a much more simple and straightforward explanation.
Now I won't lie; these were certainly interesting topics they brought up, but before I could get into a heavy discussion with them on either of their previous points, my girlfriend showed up and reminded me that we had to get to another store before it closed. They begged me to agree to meet them at a later date to hear more, but I informed them that the conversation would be quite fruitless for them, albeit interesting for me, and I moved on. The guy did give me a card with contact info and a website, but I don't have it at the moment. I'll post up for anyone interested to check out at a later time.
Being that we have quite a few devout believers and non-believers on this site, I just thought it was an interesting experience and others might have their own takes on the points they brought up.
I was at the mall last night with my girlfriend since we both needed some new work clothes, and as I was heading over to meet her at the store she was in, a guy and girl around my age politely stopped and asked me a question. I was in my own world so I didn't hear it and just sort of stopped and nodded recognition of their presence, figuring they were looking for a store or something. Whatever the question, though, their faces lit up when I nodded and they proceeded to ask me if I've noticed all of the terrible crises going on recently around the world, with emphasis on "recently". I first thought, "OK, they want money for some cause or they want to tell me the world is going to end next year." I responded, "Sure, just like they have been for centuries and millenia." Then they asked if I had ever heard of The Seal of God.
Aha, this was gonna be one of THOSE conversations. I'm assuming my tattoos, goatee, and rather bizarre looking tee shirt - along with the fact that I was walking alone - made me stand out as the perfect heathenistic candidate for saving. My gut reaction was to politely inform them that I was not interested and to move along regardless of their reaction, but then I quickly weighed my options: Sit on a bench for the next 30 minutes while my girlfriend tries on clothes at Charlotte Russe, or engage in an entertaining conversation regarding the origins of the universe, the possible existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing deity, and my eternal fate. Option B, it was.
After informing them that I hadn't heard of the seal of God, they enlightened me (being raised Catholic, then Baptist, then Evangelical Free and non-denominational, I of course had, but it's been a LONG time since I brushed up on my Bible studies, so I gave them the opportunity). Basically from what I understood, when Jesus returns, God brands his followers with a seal allowing them into heaven while the rest get marked by the brand of the Devil, or something to that effect. They then explained that every person who is born has a body and a soul. Now this is where it gets interesting. According to them, your soul was actually that of an angel of heaven who was somehow deceived by the devil and/or sinned against God, so as punishment, the soul was sent to Earth, a sort of temporary prison until Jesus returns. I pointed out that this is a much different story than what I'd previously learned and contradicts what I've learned of "original sin", but they seemed ready for it, like my comments were taken straight out of their play book (and it did seem that they were trying to stay one step ahead of me and lead me to where they wanted the conversation to go). They agreed that the idea of original sin doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and they basically responded with the idea that the concept of original sin is wrong and their story is right.
My response was to tell them that I have neither a recollection of my prior existence as an angel of heaven, nor one of my sins committed against God in said existence, so punishing me wouldn't make sense. If you commit a sin that requires punishment but then wipe someone's memory of the entire incident BEFORE punishing them, a punishment is pretty much pointless. Not to mention living a life on Earth seems like anything but a punishment to me (after all, I have no recollection of the supposed better life I lived in heaven since God wiped it out, so there's nothing to compare it to). They now stated that we are not being punished, but I immediately called them on their change in statement (they had previously said we were on Earth as a sort of temporary prison for punishment of sins committed against God). They again said, "No, it's not really a punishment" to which I responded, "But you just said it's a prison, which means it's a punishment."
After some back and forth, we got into the concept of hell and me burning for eternity. I stated that believing in and worshipping a deity who knowingly created a race of beings, the majority of whom he would burn in hell for all eternity, didn't sit right with me and made him sound like an asshole, to be honest. I don't personally think that someone like myself who is a "good" person (subjective, of course) who helps others, has a pleasant demeanor, and doesn't willfully harm others in a physical or mental capacity, should burn forever in a pit of fire and torture. They decided to throw out a belief that I see debated quite often among Christians, stating that I will not burn in hell for all eternity, but I will be punished only for those sins that I've committed, whether that equate to an hour or a week or a year in hell. While I stated that this did make a bit more sense than the simple belief that you either go to one or the other forever, I pointed out that I've personally seen nothing to make me believe that one particular all-powerful deity even exists and that any religion has it "right". They said that this makes sense since you can't believe in something you've never seen proof of (which I guess means they've seen proof), but wouldn't I want to beleive just in case what they're saying is true? I responded with, "Telling yourself you believe in something simply as a precaution doesn't mean you actually believe and, in my mind, wouldn't save you." They replied that I am wrong on this one and that if you tell yourself to believe in something for long enough, eventually you just will.
Before getting into a deeper discussion about this, they moved on to predictions and scientific facts given in the Bible, supposedly long before actual scientific research proved these facts. First, they asked me what the ancients believed in terms of how the Earth is laid out. When I hesitated slightly (trying to figure out where they were going with this), they basically fed me the "Earth is flat" belief. They also pointed out that some civilizations, such as the Greeks, believed the Earth was supported by a giant pillar, or perhaps on the shoulders of Atlas, and that it was the center of the universe. Then they brought up Job 26:7, which states "He stretcheth out the north over empty space, and hangeth the Earth upon nothing." To them, this means that the author of Job, through divine inspiration, knew that the earth was not supported by anything (ie floating in space) and that it was round. I don't really know where they got the round part from unless they forgot to show me another quote, but this whole quote in general seems so vague that it could easily be interpreted multiple ways to support a number of conclusions. I also asked myself what the author might be referring to when he states "the north", and how many times this quote has been translated and copied down over thousands of years. They never did address or contradict the "center of the universe" concept with any quotes or other statements, which I found odd.
Before I really responded, though, they immediately moved on to their next fact. They asked me where the ancients thought rain came from, and again proceeded to feed me my line, basically stating that the Gods were crying, etc. At this point they showed me another passage, Job 36:27: "For He draws up drops of water, which distill as rain from the mist, which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man." They seemed quite pleased by the fact that someone would know this before the advancement of modern science, but I again wondered how many times that quote has been "tweaked" over the years. I also wondered if they realized the central idea could be grasped from simply watching the mist of a waterfall rise up and cling to a cliff or overhang, where water droplets form and then drip down. Is it out of the realm of possibility that someone might conceive the basic idea over the course of thousands of years without the aid of modern science? In my mind, ancient people were bound to get a few things right, but maybe I'm wrong on that. Clearly to these two, the concept of divine inspiration was a much more simple and straightforward explanation.
Now I won't lie; these were certainly interesting topics they brought up, but before I could get into a heavy discussion with them on either of their previous points, my girlfriend showed up and reminded me that we had to get to another store before it closed. They begged me to agree to meet them at a later date to hear more, but I informed them that the conversation would be quite fruitless for them, albeit interesting for me, and I moved on. The guy did give me a card with contact info and a website, but I don't have it at the moment. I'll post up for anyone interested to check out at a later time.
Being that we have quite a few devout believers and non-believers on this site, I just thought it was an interesting experience and others might have their own takes on the points they brought up.
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