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"Fully built" 3.0L Duratec V6? Anyone?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ex-'93 Cobra" data-source="post: 1471252" data-attributes="member: 11332"><p>Hey there,</p><p></p><p>I sincerely appreciate the contribution of knowledge here but I do not deserve to be criticised for anything.</p><p></p><p>I made it very clear that this thread was my starting point to R&D. I'd hate to be criticised for not "doing my homework" when I cleary conveyed that this where I am starting my research and I did not know of any other place to discuss this with experienced people.</p><p></p><p>I did not disregard accurate information. I asked for data to back it up and considered it as accurate until known otherwise.</p><p></p><p>I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it.</p><p></p><p>I did not tell anyone anything about this motor. I shared my experiences with another motor .. and simply stated that what was often discussed as impossible was done with the other motors .. so I'd like to LEARN about the data that supports the current statemets of similar mods not being worth it for this v6.</p><p></p><p>I can see how the 3.5l was thought of ... I was thinking it would probably just be stroked and bored version of the 3.0l . Pretty intuitive for anyone.</p><p></p><p>So, you are basically saying this is a factory stroked version/oversquare version of the 2.5l . This is perfect for the example of the toyota 5m and 7m motors that I described in my post above.</p><p></p><p>5m = 85mm stroke .... common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains".</p><p></p><p>7m comes along form factory as an oversquared engine with 91mm stroked version f the 5m. Common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains".</p><p></p><p>A forum friend of mine just finished all of his r&d to make an unheard of 101mm stroke and 86mm bore (or close to it) with head flow numbers that were absolutely never deamed possible .... for somewhere under 2k$.</p><p></p><p>For years, brainiacs and experienced builders of that engine before him told everyone that minor gains were possible and pretty pointless .. so only rebuild if you have to etc. </p><p></p><p>He is clearly proving that wrong .. and he is proving that it is affordable.</p><p></p><p>IMO, when you strap a turbo (or even sprecharger) on the motor then the displacement and head modification have a high chance of proving to have VERY good benefits. I can understand what you mean by minimal gains for the NA motor ... but I sincerely think that the turbo performance would be greatly affected for spool time and top-end flow and overall power gain.</p><p></p><p>About the revs, just because it is more work does not mean that it cannot happen ... no? People said you shouldn't rev the 91mm stroke past 6500-7000rpms max. There is a guy in austrailia running 10000rpms. Many brainiacs and experienced builders in this enthusiast group think that the 101mm crank, if balanced properly ... and with strong enough hardware bolting everything together ... shoudl rev to atleast 7500rpms well... which is a 1300rpms increase form stock. </p><p></p><p>So, with all of this having happened over the past 20 years with the toyota motors mentioned ... I am pretty sure that it is POSSIBLE that this could be a similar scenario here.</p><p></p><p>Since when is it wrong to ask for data? Thats all I aksed for. You have a much more convincing post ... deamon ... and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to sare. </p><p></p><p>I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it.</p><p></p><p>I sincerely thank you for sharing your knowledge ... but I am a bit dissappointed for what seemed to be a very condescending message passed my way when you know absolutely nothing about me and actually wrongfully accused me IMO.</p><p></p><p>I believe and comprehend what you are conveying about the engine. But I will not ignore the POSSIBILITY that there is some unknowns here and maybe some underestimations and considerations. Just because, many things are possible .. and I explained the experiences with the similar toyota motor build theories and current results.</p><p></p><p>If you are familiar with driving turbocharged engines .... then you know that they can be difficult to tune for linear power delivery due to lag issues in relation to the turbo size you need for desired power out put and due to the engine discplacement that is providing gas for the turbo to spool with. </p><p></p><p>You may realise that if you can figure out a bunch of little ways to help faster spool ... and top end flow ... you may find yourself with an entire new power band for tunability that could be drastically changed by 500-1000+rpms ... because the power band is only really active when the turbo is compressing intake and flowing exhaust efficiently. The power is mostly from the turbo .. so you want it in it's efficiency range as much as possbile. With a smlle motor ... it is difficult to sieze the efficincy range for longer periods of time .. and it gets more difficult when you have a higher peak power goal. </p><p></p><p>Granted, I did not mention that this motor would be turbocharged ... and be aiming for over 500-600hp with a linear and wide power band with good response (I understand .. he larger displacement could lag response ... so please spare me if you were thinking of a lecture) .... but that shouldn't really affect your verbage that is directed to me.</p><p></p><p>It is little tricks of porting and stroking and boring many of the bolt ons and enine internals that can help this ... along with heat managements .. and some other little tricks .... and for the type of power delivery that I prefer ... I was thinking of how much displacement could be added in hopes to find out another way to increase spool time and consequently widen the power band. </p><p></p><p>It's kinda like saving pennys. I started collecting pennies form my pocket change one year. People laughed and said it wasn't worth it. A year or two later ... I had over 200$ in pennies .. and I was able to help somebody in need with that extra money.</p><p></p><p>You get a bunch of little tricks combined and you can have a big result.</p><p></p><p>If I can get my friend (or sombody with similare capabilities and rates) to do that same R&D and fabriction that he did for his 7m .. then it could be well worth a grand or two for power delivery that is more desired ... IMO.</p><p></p><p>I also think that with the right balancing and hardware ... the stock rev limit should be maintainable ... or possibly exceeded. </p><p></p><p>I am not claiming to know this as fact ... but a motor is a motor ... and if the theory was done with similar toyota motors ... then it should work with any other motor. </p><p></p><p>Again I sincerely thank you for the information. Good to know that .5liters is available if it is deemed to be worth the effort. </p><p></p><p>I agree that your estimated prices are pretty high and start to deter from good value ... but when you're focused on a project and finished experience being the best that it can be ... money is less important than goals being realized. </p><p></p><p>Maybe you can relate with your high 13 second svt countor. I respect it and the work that you put into it .. and I am sure that you have great ride in it. Although, I am also sure that many people bashed your goals for the car .. telling you how much of a waste it seems to be to mod a contour. See what I mean? Good.</p><p></p><p>Again, I am hoping that the work can be done for much cheaper ... like my friend found a way to do with his project.</p><p></p><p>This would be my goal. Don't get mad because you don;'t like the idea. Individuality is okay. This has grwat "taste" too ... and this is not boeing wing on the back of a saturn or anything obsurd.</p><p></p><p>I can also understand the frustration with discussing a topic multiple times ... and I sincerely apologize for asking you for such a contribution if this information is really easily found.</p><p></p><p>I am somewhat of a veteran at other forums ... where I see multiple posts come up on the same topic .. time and time again ... and that gets frustrating and exhausting. Myself and others decided to design an FAQ to help out the newbs.</p><p></p><p>I also ran a search for anything with duratec in any part of this forum. I was looking for motor build info. I found very little (pretty much nothing about what I was looking for) in the time I had alotted ... despite looking through many many results ... so I made a post.</p><p></p><p>My apologies for your frustration with my post .. even though .... none of us really know everything ... so you can always be a "newb" in some area of study and you always start somewhere.</p><p></p><p>I wish this had been greater realised here before and I hope that it is now. There is really nothing wrong with my posts. I am very respectful in all messages as well. I am inapropriately bashed and falsely accused of several things IMO. </p><p></p><p>Oh well ... </p><p></p><p>Thanks a bunch .. AGAIN .. for the info ... even if it was given reluctantly and condescendingly while falsely accusing me with a touch of negaive criticism.</p><p></p><p>I understand that you meant well. Thanks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ex-'93 Cobra, post: 1471252, member: 11332"] Hey there, I sincerely appreciate the contribution of knowledge here but I do not deserve to be criticised for anything. I made it very clear that this thread was my starting point to R&D. I'd hate to be criticised for not "doing my homework" when I cleary conveyed that this where I am starting my research and I did not know of any other place to discuss this with experienced people. I did not disregard accurate information. I asked for data to back it up and considered it as accurate until known otherwise. I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it. I did not tell anyone anything about this motor. I shared my experiences with another motor .. and simply stated that what was often discussed as impossible was done with the other motors .. so I'd like to LEARN about the data that supports the current statemets of similar mods not being worth it for this v6. I can see how the 3.5l was thought of ... I was thinking it would probably just be stroked and bored version of the 3.0l . Pretty intuitive for anyone. So, you are basically saying this is a factory stroked version/oversquare version of the 2.5l . This is perfect for the example of the toyota 5m and 7m motors that I described in my post above. 5m = 85mm stroke .... common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains". 7m comes along form factory as an oversquared engine with 91mm stroked version f the 5m. Common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains". A forum friend of mine just finished all of his r&d to make an unheard of 101mm stroke and 86mm bore (or close to it) with head flow numbers that were absolutely never deamed possible .... for somewhere under 2k$. For years, brainiacs and experienced builders of that engine before him told everyone that minor gains were possible and pretty pointless .. so only rebuild if you have to etc. He is clearly proving that wrong .. and he is proving that it is affordable. IMO, when you strap a turbo (or even sprecharger) on the motor then the displacement and head modification have a high chance of proving to have VERY good benefits. I can understand what you mean by minimal gains for the NA motor ... but I sincerely think that the turbo performance would be greatly affected for spool time and top-end flow and overall power gain. About the revs, just because it is more work does not mean that it cannot happen ... no? People said you shouldn't rev the 91mm stroke past 6500-7000rpms max. There is a guy in austrailia running 10000rpms. Many brainiacs and experienced builders in this enthusiast group think that the 101mm crank, if balanced properly ... and with strong enough hardware bolting everything together ... shoudl rev to atleast 7500rpms well... which is a 1300rpms increase form stock. So, with all of this having happened over the past 20 years with the toyota motors mentioned ... I am pretty sure that it is POSSIBLE that this could be a similar scenario here. Since when is it wrong to ask for data? Thats all I aksed for. You have a much more convincing post ... deamon ... and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to sare. I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it. I sincerely thank you for sharing your knowledge ... but I am a bit dissappointed for what seemed to be a very condescending message passed my way when you know absolutely nothing about me and actually wrongfully accused me IMO. I believe and comprehend what you are conveying about the engine. But I will not ignore the POSSIBILITY that there is some unknowns here and maybe some underestimations and considerations. Just because, many things are possible .. and I explained the experiences with the similar toyota motor build theories and current results. If you are familiar with driving turbocharged engines .... then you know that they can be difficult to tune for linear power delivery due to lag issues in relation to the turbo size you need for desired power out put and due to the engine discplacement that is providing gas for the turbo to spool with. You may realise that if you can figure out a bunch of little ways to help faster spool ... and top end flow ... you may find yourself with an entire new power band for tunability that could be drastically changed by 500-1000+rpms ... because the power band is only really active when the turbo is compressing intake and flowing exhaust efficiently. The power is mostly from the turbo .. so you want it in it's efficiency range as much as possbile. With a smlle motor ... it is difficult to sieze the efficincy range for longer periods of time .. and it gets more difficult when you have a higher peak power goal. Granted, I did not mention that this motor would be turbocharged ... and be aiming for over 500-600hp with a linear and wide power band with good response (I understand .. he larger displacement could lag response ... so please spare me if you were thinking of a lecture) .... but that shouldn't really affect your verbage that is directed to me. It is little tricks of porting and stroking and boring many of the bolt ons and enine internals that can help this ... along with heat managements .. and some other little tricks .... and for the type of power delivery that I prefer ... I was thinking of how much displacement could be added in hopes to find out another way to increase spool time and consequently widen the power band. It's kinda like saving pennys. I started collecting pennies form my pocket change one year. People laughed and said it wasn't worth it. A year or two later ... I had over 200$ in pennies .. and I was able to help somebody in need with that extra money. You get a bunch of little tricks combined and you can have a big result. If I can get my friend (or sombody with similare capabilities and rates) to do that same R&D and fabriction that he did for his 7m .. then it could be well worth a grand or two for power delivery that is more desired ... IMO. I also think that with the right balancing and hardware ... the stock rev limit should be maintainable ... or possibly exceeded. I am not claiming to know this as fact ... but a motor is a motor ... and if the theory was done with similar toyota motors ... then it should work with any other motor. Again I sincerely thank you for the information. Good to know that .5liters is available if it is deemed to be worth the effort. I agree that your estimated prices are pretty high and start to deter from good value ... but when you're focused on a project and finished experience being the best that it can be ... money is less important than goals being realized. Maybe you can relate with your high 13 second svt countor. I respect it and the work that you put into it .. and I am sure that you have great ride in it. Although, I am also sure that many people bashed your goals for the car .. telling you how much of a waste it seems to be to mod a contour. See what I mean? Good. Again, I am hoping that the work can be done for much cheaper ... like my friend found a way to do with his project. This would be my goal. Don't get mad because you don;'t like the idea. Individuality is okay. This has grwat "taste" too ... and this is not boeing wing on the back of a saturn or anything obsurd. I can also understand the frustration with discussing a topic multiple times ... and I sincerely apologize for asking you for such a contribution if this information is really easily found. I am somewhat of a veteran at other forums ... where I see multiple posts come up on the same topic .. time and time again ... and that gets frustrating and exhausting. Myself and others decided to design an FAQ to help out the newbs. I also ran a search for anything with duratec in any part of this forum. I was looking for motor build info. I found very little (pretty much nothing about what I was looking for) in the time I had alotted ... despite looking through many many results ... so I made a post. My apologies for your frustration with my post .. even though .... none of us really know everything ... so you can always be a "newb" in some area of study and you always start somewhere. I wish this had been greater realised here before and I hope that it is now. There is really nothing wrong with my posts. I am very respectful in all messages as well. I am inapropriately bashed and falsely accused of several things IMO. Oh well ... Thanks a bunch .. AGAIN .. for the info ... even if it was given reluctantly and condescendingly while falsely accusing me with a touch of negaive criticism. I understand that you meant well. Thanks. [/QUOTE]
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