"Fully built" 3.0L Duratec V6? Anyone?

[Ex-'93 Cobra]

Curious:

Has anyone tried to fully build one of these?

I'm thinking...

Longest stroke possible, biggest bore possible, highest CR to still run pump gas, strongest and lightest internals (probably titanium ... so possibly custom pistons and rods and pins etc), crank scraper, very efficient oiling and cooling system, extremely ported and polished head with adjustable cam gears and titanium and oversized valve-train, port matched high flow manifold ...

etc etc etc.

So, to get started on how feasible this is at this time ...

Anyone have an idea on where some of these parts may be available?

Is anyone already known for their 3.0 Duratec V6 engine building?

Please, provide input. Thanks.

 

[Jason43]

Check DemonSVT's profile and look at his web site. His is about as 'built' as you can get. Its enough that he can run 13's NA, which isn't bad on a FWD car with a small V6 known for its traction issues. Stroke/bore -not really alot of room to mess around with, can't go too high with the compression, especially if forced induction is a possibility down the road, cam gears -not happening. If you are interested in this, I would suggest reading as much as you can on the 3.0 forum on contour.org.

 

[Ex-'93 Cobra]

Thanks for the input. ANY more is appreciated.

I am aware of necessary compression calculations and forced induction variables etc etc.

About stroke and bore, if there is any room at all ... I'd like to take it. I am not convinced that there will not be great gains from such internal modifications. However, I will admit that I know little about this specific clearances of this motor.

Combine this with a good standalone from motec or tec or the 20+other companies .. and you have a lot of potential.

Thanks for the username and forum link. I'll definitely use both resources.

DeamonSVT's site seems to be "down". I will contact him about it.

Also, anyone have details about weight and size differences in comparison of the 3.0 and 3.5 (that I found out exists form a glance at some random web search)?

If there is anymore info, please, keep it coming.

Thanks!

 

[Jason43]

No 3.5. That rumor started when the SHO shop stated they were working on a 3.5 that never materialized. The weight difference between the 2.5 and 3.0 is very little.

You could get away with a 1mm overbore, but anymore than that and you'd need to resleave, plus you'd be be getting close to hurting the structural integrety of the block.

As for the stroke, maybe if you did the r&d and had a custom crank made. The gains would not even be close to being worth the time/effort/money spent.

 

[Ex-'93 Cobra]

Originally posted by Jason43
No 3.5. That rumor started when the SHO shop stated they were working on a 3.5 that never materialized. The weight difference between the 2.5 and 3.0 is very little.

You could get away with a 1mm overbore, but anymore than that and you'd need to resleave, plus you'd be be getting close to hurting the structural integrety of the block.

As for the stroke, maybe if you did the r&d and had a custom crank made. The gains would not even be close to being worth the time/effort/money spent.

Thanks for the response, but, what data are you coming to these conclusions from?

No offense to you at all intended ...

It is very rare that anyone ever relays accurate data on a motor build unless they have done the work themselves or known somebody who has.

I can think of several motors where people sad ... "you could never stroke that" ... or "you could never bore that or maybe you cuold get a mm or two" ... but then next thing you know there are +3-5mm bores and +5+mm stroke find to be very fesable and a great ebenefit in performance that helps the motor to raise over a "plateau" of performance that it wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise.

Therefore, I am very skeptical to comments such are yours.

I am not interested in the 2.5 at all, but thanks for the info. There has really NEVER ben a 3.5 to date? I THOUGHT that what I glanced at was a statement of an existing model. Maybe I am mistaken.

I know of some places and have some friends that cold help such machining to be very cheap, so I may not care at all. I know one guy who just had a custom made crank setup for a +10mm (101mm)stroke on a factory stroked motor of 91mm from the original motor stroke of 85mm. This is +16mm stroke overall. The block needs to be slightly machined for a very small clearance issue. Nobody thought about stroking the 85mm crank when it was released.

The same guy is aiming for an 86mm bore out of a block that people have always said would never withstand anything over an 84.5mm bore. Somebody has already put an 85.3mm bore on the same block.

Both motors are inline 6.
One will be pushing for CR of 9.2-9.5 for a turbo configuration and the other a 14.5:1 for NA.

I understand this may just be a motor that has a lot material to work with, but what you seem to be saying si that there is almost no room or use of a stroke or bore on the v6 DT and I am just having a hard time believing that.

Thanks for the input though. Please, keep it coming at will. Back up input with fact data as much as possible please.

Thanks!

 

[Ryan]

Demon's motor is a stock bottom 3.0L end. Hell, I think his is even a junkyard motor.

The most 'built' 3.0L is probably Rick's (Buckshot) or Jim/Scotts (BeyondloadedSE). They both have forged pistons and rods. Ricks car is S/C'ed }~400fwp and Jims/Scotts car is turbocharged but they are still working out the bugs on it.

IIRC, Rick's car is actually putting down hte most HP right now.

Chris (Keyser) built a 2.5L and put down right aobut 400fwhp too IIRC.

Terry Haines Motorsport is probably going to be your closest builder of the Duratec. Most of the other engines are DIY stuff. Mirko Racing could be another source of information as well.

 

[Ex-'93 Cobra]

Thx.

Keep the info coming, please.

 

[DemonSVT]

The power gain verses cash outlay to stroke or bore the 3L is pointless.

If you had done your homework you would now the Duratec is an over square engine. The 3L especially so. This brings up the powerband to help the high winding DOHC engine architecture make power if a usable range for small displacement.
We are not talking about pushrod large displacement V8's. (Even a 5L is twice the displacement of the standard Duratec)

As for clearances and limits.

You disregard accurate information like you researched all the possibilities already. I you HAVE then why ask this question in the first place because you know it's cost per gain is pointless.

Since you obviously HAVE NOT done any research at all you should be learning and not telling people the limits they state are not accurate and you are skeptical of everything posted. ...no offense intended...


The Duratec has a cast in liner. You could push it to +1mm (90mm) but +.5mm is a safer overbore if you plan boost.

To replace the liner you would have to SLOWLY machine it out and then the block to accommodate a high strength press in sleeve.
Even then maximum bore size is about 93mm. Correct that's 4mm over stock and 3mm over max stock liner bore.

Cost outlay for this alone would be around $800-1000 for an extra ~170cc. (2970 vs 3240)
Then factor in "one off" custom pistons at $800-1000 and it gets even worse.

That's $11-12 per cc of increase.
A general rule of thumb is for every 20cc you get 1HP/TQ. (8HP/TQ at $230 per! :bash: )
However then factor in the extra weight of the pistons and the slower revability (i.e. work or HP) on an engine designed to rev and the gains diminish more. Maybe $250 per..


Now let's talk stroke.
Custom "one off" crank and it can't be cast. $$$$$$$$
Stroking the engine severely limits RPM range of an engine designed to rev and make power in the 4000-7500rpm range.
Custom rods ($1200-1500 a set)

The starting clearance is hundredths meaning you will need shorter rods and that means a lot of R&D work ($$$$)

I could see spending 5 grand just stroking the engine. Maybe more probably not much less.

You could get about 3500cc's from a 93mm bore and maximum stroke. Hence the whole 3.5L idea that's been floating around for a lot of years now. (That size wasn't just pulled out of a hat ;-) )

So maybe another 260cc's from 5 grand or $300-350 per

However your rpm range drops and HP is a derivative of TQ and RPM so your actually numbers would drop because you could not achieve the same peak rpm numbers. More like a definite $350 per...

For the metrically intolerant old schoolers that's 212ci (3.5L) vs 182ci (3L) or a whoppin' 30ci increase.


So if you had done your homework... (This topic has come up several times in detail on both CEG & NECO)


The morale of the story is for uniqueness it would be cool but for common sense it's pointless.

A Supercharger (with IC & shaft bearing upgrades) is about 5k. (4000-7500rpm setup)
The full ADC turbo kit is about 5k. (3000-6500rpm setup)

Both will make more power then a 3.5L engine and do it for about half the cost. Comparatively maybe less than that even.

 

[Y2KSVT]

I don't know, sounds skeptical.... LOL j/k!

Mark
Y2KSVT

 

[Ex-'93 Cobra]

Hey there,

I sincerely appreciate the contribution of knowledge here but I do not deserve to be criticised for anything.

I made it very clear that this thread was my starting point to R&D. I'd hate to be criticised for not "doing my homework" when I cleary conveyed that this where I am starting my research and I did not know of any other place to discuss this with experienced people.

I did not disregard accurate information. I asked for data to back it up and considered it as accurate until known otherwise.

I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it.

I did not tell anyone anything about this motor. I shared my experiences with another motor .. and simply stated that what was often discussed as impossible was done with the other motors .. so I'd like to LEARN about the data that supports the current statemets of similar mods not being worth it for this v6.

I can see how the 3.5l was thought of ... I was thinking it would probably just be stroked and bored version of the 3.0l . Pretty intuitive for anyone.

So, you are basically saying this is a factory stroked version/oversquare version of the 2.5l . This is perfect for the example of the toyota 5m and 7m motors that I described in my post above.

5m = 85mm stroke .... common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains".

7m comes along form factory as an oversquared engine with 91mm stroked version f the 5m. Common comments = "stroke and bore will be worthless for power gains".

A forum friend of mine just finished all of his r&d to make an unheard of 101mm stroke and 86mm bore (or close to it) with head flow numbers that were absolutely never deamed possible .... for somewhere under 2k$.

For years, brainiacs and experienced builders of that engine before him told everyone that minor gains were possible and pretty pointless .. so only rebuild if you have to etc.

He is clearly proving that wrong .. and he is proving that it is affordable.

IMO, when you strap a turbo (or even sprecharger) on the motor then the displacement and head modification have a high chance of proving to have VERY good benefits. I can understand what you mean by minimal gains for the NA motor ... but I sincerely think that the turbo performance would be greatly affected for spool time and top-end flow and overall power gain.

About the revs, just because it is more work does not mean that it cannot happen ... no? People said you shouldn't rev the 91mm stroke past 6500-7000rpms max. There is a guy in austrailia running 10000rpms. Many brainiacs and experienced builders in this enthusiast group think that the 101mm crank, if balanced properly ... and with strong enough hardware bolting everything together ... shoudl rev to atleast 7500rpms well... which is a 1300rpms increase form stock.

So, with all of this having happened over the past 20 years with the toyota motors mentioned ... I am pretty sure that it is POSSIBLE that this could be a similar scenario here.

Since when is it wrong to ask for data? Thats all I aksed for. You have a much more convincing post ... deamon ... and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to sare.

I made it very clear that I want to learn about this particular engine because I know nothing about it.

I sincerely thank you for sharing your knowledge ... but I am a bit dissappointed for what seemed to be a very condescending message passed my way when you know absolutely nothing about me and actually wrongfully accused me IMO.

I believe and comprehend what you are conveying about the engine. But I will not ignore the POSSIBILITY that there is some unknowns here and maybe some underestimations and considerations. Just because, many things are possible .. and I explained the experiences with the similar toyota motor build theories and current results.

If you are familiar with driving turbocharged engines .... then you know that they can be difficult to tune for linear power delivery due to lag issues in relation to the turbo size you need for desired power out put and due to the engine discplacement that is providing gas for the turbo to spool with.

You may realise that if you can figure out a bunch of little ways to help faster spool ... and top end flow ... you may find yourself with an entire new power band for tunability that could be drastically changed by 500-1000+rpms ... because the power band is only really active when the turbo is compressing intake and flowing exhaust efficiently. The power is mostly from the turbo .. so you want it in it's efficiency range as much as possbile. With a smlle motor ... it is difficult to sieze the efficincy range for longer periods of time .. and it gets more difficult when you have a higher peak power goal.

Granted, I did not mention that this motor would be turbocharged ... and be aiming for over 500-600hp with a linear and wide power band with good response (I understand .. he larger displacement could lag response ... so please spare me if you were thinking of a lecture) .... but that shouldn't really affect your verbage that is directed to me.

It is little tricks of porting and stroking and boring many of the bolt ons and enine internals that can help this ... along with heat managements .. and some other little tricks .... and for the type of power delivery that I prefer ... I was thinking of how much displacement could be added in hopes to find out another way to increase spool time and consequently widen the power band.

It's kinda like saving pennys. I started collecting pennies form my pocket change one year. People laughed and said it wasn't worth it. A year or two later ... I had over 200$ in pennies .. and I was able to help somebody in need with that extra money.

You get a bunch of little tricks combined and you can have a big result.

If I can get my friend (or sombody with similare capabilities and rates) to do that same R&D and fabriction that he did for his 7m .. then it could be well worth a grand or two for power delivery that is more desired ... IMO.

I also think that with the right balancing and hardware ... the stock rev limit should be maintainable ... or possibly exceeded.

I am not claiming to know this as fact ... but a motor is a motor ... and if the theory was done with similar toyota motors ... then it should work with any other motor.

Again I sincerely thank you for the information. Good to know that .5liters is available if it is deemed to be worth the effort.

I agree that your estimated prices are pretty high and start to deter from good value ... but when you're focused on a project and finished experience being the best that it can be ... money is less important than goals being realized.

Maybe you can relate with your high 13 second svt countor. I respect it and the work that you put into it .. and I am sure that you have great ride in it. Although, I am also sure that many people bashed your goals for the car .. telling you how much of a waste it seems to be to mod a contour. See what I mean? Good.

Again, I am hoping that the work can be done for much cheaper ... like my friend found a way to do with his project.

This would be my goal. Don't get mad because you don;'t like the idea. Individuality is okay. This has grwat "taste" too ... and this is not boeing wing on the back of a saturn or anything obsurd.

I can also understand the frustration with discussing a topic multiple times ... and I sincerely apologize for asking you for such a contribution if this information is really easily found.

I am somewhat of a veteran at other forums ... where I see multiple posts come up on the same topic .. time and time again ... and that gets frustrating and exhausting. Myself and others decided to design an FAQ to help out the newbs.

I also ran a search for anything with duratec in any part of this forum. I was looking for motor build info. I found very little (pretty much nothing about what I was looking for) in the time I had alotted ... despite looking through many many results ... so I made a post.

My apologies for your frustration with my post .. even though .... none of us really know everything ... so you can always be a "newb" in some area of study and you always start somewhere.

I wish this had been greater realised here before and I hope that it is now. There is really nothing wrong with my posts. I am very respectful in all messages as well. I am inapropriately bashed and falsely accused of several things IMO.

Oh well ...

Thanks a bunch .. AGAIN .. for the info ... even if it was given reluctantly and condescendingly while falsely accusing me with a touch of negaive criticism.

I understand that you meant well. Thanks.

 

[DemonSVT]

Originally posted by Ex-'93 Cobra

1. So, you are basically saying this is a factory stroked version/oversquare version of the 2.5l . This is perfect for the example of the toyota 5m and 7m motors that I described in my post above.

2. If you are familiar with driving turbocharged engines .... then you know that they can be difficult to tune for linear power delivery due to lag issues in relation to the turbo size you need for desired power out put and due to the engine discplacement that is providing gas for the turbo to spool with.

3. Granted, I did not mention that this motor would be turbocharged ... and be aiming for over 500-600hp with a linear and wide power band with good response (I understand .. he larger displacement could lag response)

4. It is little tricks of porting and stroking and boring many of the bolt ons and enine internals that can help this ... along with heat managements .. and some other little tricks .... and for the type of power delivery that I prefer ...

5. I was thinking of how much displacement could be added in hopes to find out another way to increase spool time and consequently widen the power band.

6. It's kinda like saving pennys. I started collecting pennies form my pocket change one year. People laughed and said it wasn't worth it. A year or two later ... I had over 200$ in pennies .. and I was able to help somebody in need with that extra money.
You get a bunch of little tricks combined and you can have a big result.

7. If I can get my friend (or sombody with similare capabilities and rates) to do that same R&D and fabriction that he did for his 7m .. then it could be well worth a grand or two for power delivery that is more desired ... IMO.

8. I also think that with the right balancing and hardware ... the stock rev limit should be maintainable ... or possibly exceeded.

9. Again I sincerely thank you for the information. Good to know that .5liters is available if it is deemed to be worth the effort.

1. No. Bore only.
Both engines have the exact same crank forging and 79.5mm stroke (yes it revs FAST!)
Also the stock block & crank can support over 1200HP (IIRC Manny's 6.99 sec Cougar has 1400-1600 now? It's a TT 3L RWD drag car)

Increasing stroke will decrease reliability as well.
Though the amount you could get is relatively small.

Like I mentioned the stock clearances are minimal to begin with. Ford's new 3.5L Duratec has a completely different block in order to achieve the longer stroke. So even their "brainiacs" knew something.

2. Not really. They are easy to tune and build a proper setup IMO. The key is deciding what your final goal is and then building a setup suited to your needs. I do not think it is really that difficult personally.
Matter of fact there are exponentially more choices for turbo designs now there even 5 years ago. (much less 10 or 15)
They are more efficient, more reliable, and easy to tailor to your setup.

3. For 600HP you will shorten your powerband because you will be dropping CR and running very high boost. It always takes longer to raise boost to a level at which the curves steadies out. (so to speak)
Running 3hp/l is always going to have drawbacks somewhere and power under the curve will be the first. No matter how fast you get the turbo to spool.

4. Porting will help power output. Not so much big power under the curve gains per se. Now the 01+ tumble port 3L heads verses the split port will help in that area.

Most F/I porting is "make it big" when you really don't want to alter the stock port shape more then cleaning the bad areas. The Duratec is not hindered by poor head design like many engines are.
You can check out my website for pictures of the oval port 3L heads.

5. The question becomes is several thousand dollars worth 50 HP/TQ or is 2psi more boost & 100rpm more "lag" (comparatively) worth it.

A larger engine needs a larger turbo. (no argument) Even if the turbo sizing matched the engine increase the "spool factor" is still slightly against you based on actual impeller/turbine weight size increase and moment of inertia.

6. You don't need to tell me about doing all the detail work and modifying everything and anything. I'm already well into that stage of fanaticism. ;-)

7. It's not the R&D but the custom one off parts. A cast crank will not survive. That's a proven fact.
A one off forged crank will cost a fortune.
My prices for rods & pistons are spot on for high quality products. I know how much the forged units cost that they already have the specs for. ($600 pistons & $1000 rods)

I personally just can't fathom spending that much money for a mere 500cc's. The cost value is astronomic.

I never asked what you plan to put the Duratec in. Hopefully not a FWD car. The CDW-27 is an excellent handling car but planting more the 200 wheels just isn't going to happen. Heck I had trouble planting the 2.5L and that had under 200 FWTQ. :shrug:

8. 7500rpm is as far as I would push it. That's provided you have Clevite bearings, 3M4Z oil pan, and 6qts of oil. (that's a full 3L - a 2.5L needs more)
The valvetrain can easily handle 8100rpm on a 200FWHP NA engine. Now boosted it hasn't been tested above 7500rpm (~300FWHP engine) but handled that fine as well.

There are better valve springs (ST220) They are about 10-15lbs greater seat pressure.

9. Glad to help (and trying to seem nicer)

Like I said there comes a point when several grand for just one-off custom parts alone just does not add up to the benefits.

Also there is the problem of block integrity loss when you bore out the 3L. The "estimate" was ~25% integrity loss to make it 3.2L The walls would be pretty thin!
That does not bode well for an engine being boosted.
Also the thinner the walls the less the heat sink and dissipation to the water jackets.

 

[Derk2000]

What about building up an oval port 3L engine w/ all the goodies available (bearings, etc), porting the heads to match the 2.5L intake (SVT of course), and popping in some higher compression pistons. I'd imagine that you could bump the 3L's compression (9.8:1 ish?) up to 11:1 and still run on pump gas and a proper tune.

Seems much more feasable and cost effective.

Just an idea.:burn: