Faster than a speeding Jim Snover

Black0ut

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
887
Location
GTEh
WARP DRIVE

HOUSTON — Beyond the security gate at the Johnson Space Center’s 1960s-era campus here, inside a two-story glass and concrete building with winding corridors, there is a floating laboratory.

Harold G. White, a physicist and advanced propulsion engineer at NASA, beckoned toward a table full of equipment there on a recent afternoon: a laser, a camera, some small mirrors, a ring made of ceramic capacitors and a few other objects.

He and other NASA engineers have been designing and redesigning these instruments, with the goal of using them to slightly warp the trajectory of a photon, changing the distance it travels in a certain area, and then observing the change with a device called an interferometer. So sensitive is their measuring equipment that it was picking up myriad earthly vibrations, including people walking nearby. So they recently moved into this lab, which floats atop a system of underground pneumatic piers, freeing it from seismic disturbances.

The team is trying to determine whether faster-than-light travel — warp drive — might someday be possible.

Warp drive. Like on “Star Trek.”

“Space has been expanding since the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago,” said Dr. White, 43, who runs the research project. “And we know that when you look at some of the cosmology models, there were early periods of the universe where there was explosive inflation, where two points would’ve went receding away from each other at very rapid speeds.”

“Nature can do it,” he said. “So the question is, can we do it?”

Einstein famously postulated that, as Dr. White put it, “thou shalt not exceed the speed of light,” essentially setting a galactic speed limit. But in 1994, a Mexican physicist, Miguel Alcubierre, theorized that faster-than-light speeds were possible in a way that did not contradict Einstein, though Dr. Alcubierre did not suggest anyone could actually construct the engine that could accomplish that.

His theory involved harnessing the expansion and contraction of space itself. Under Dr. Alcubierre’s hypothesis, a ship still couldn’t exceed light speed in a local region of space. But a theoretical propulsion system he sketched out manipulated space-time by generating a so-called “warp bubble” that would expand space on one side of a spacecraft and contract it on another.

“In this way, the spaceship will be pushed away from the Earth and pulled towards a distant star by space-time itself,” Dr. Alcubierre wrote. Dr. White has likened it to stepping onto a moving walkway at an airport.

But Dr. Alcubierre’s paper was purely theoretical, and suggested insurmountable hurdles. Among other things, it depended on large amounts of a little understood or observed type of “exotic matter” that violates typical physical laws.

Dr. White believes that advances he and others have made render warp speed less implausible. Among other things, he has redesigned the theoretical warp-traveling spacecraft — and in particular a ring around it that is key to its propulsion system — in a way that he believes will greatly reduce the energy requirements.

He is quick to offer up his own caveats, however, saying his warp research is akin to a university science project that is just trying to prove that a microscopic warp bubble can be detected in a lab. ”We’re not bolting this to a spacecraft,” he said of the warp technology.

Dr. White was an engineer with a background in the aerospace industry when he came to NASA in 2000, starting his career at the agency by operating the arms of space shuttles. He got his doctorate in physics from Rice University in 2008, and now works on a range of projects aimed at taking NASA beyond the fiery rockets that have long characterized space travel.

For NASA, Dr. White’s warp speed experiments represent a rounding error in its budget, with about $50,000 spent on equipment in an agency that spends nearly $18 billion annually. The agency is far more focused on more achievable projects — building the next generation Orion series spacecraft, working on the International Space Station and preparing for a planned future mission to capture an asteroid.

But it has made internal resources available for the project and freed up other engineers to assist Dr. White. It has also restored the pneumatic system in the laboratory Dr. White is using, to allow it to float. The lab was once used to test equipment for Apollo missions and has control panels underneath it that look like they belong in a fallout shelter that time forgot.

Steve Stich, the deputy director of engineering at the Johnson Space Center, said, “You always have to be looking towards the future.” He held up his iPhone.

“Forty years ago, this was ‘Star Trek,’ Captain Kirk talking on a communicator whenever he wanted to,” he said. “But today it exists because people made the battery technology that allows this device to exist, worked on the software technology, worked on the computational technology, the touch screen.”

Theoretically, a warp drive could cut the travel time between stars from tens of thousands of years to weeks or months. But we should probably not book reservations anytime soon.

“My personal opinion is that the idea is crazy for now,” said Edwin F. Taylor, a former editor of The American Journal of Physics and senior research scientist at M.I.T. “Check with me in a hundred years.”

But Richard Obousy, a physicist who is president of Icarus Interstellar, a nonprofit group composed of volunteers collaborating on starship design, said “it is not airy-fairy, pie in the sky.”

“We tend to overestimate what we can do on short time scales, but I think we massively underestimate what we can do on longer time scales,” he said of the work of Dr. White, who is a friend and Icarus collaborator.

Dr. White likened his experiments to the early stages of the Manhattan Project, which were aimed at creating a very small nuclear reaction merely as proof that it could be done.

“They tried to go through and demonstrate a nuclear reactor and generate half a watt,” he said. “That’s not something you’re going to market. Nobody’s going to buy that. It’s just making sure they understood the physics and science.”

Neil deGrasse Tyson, the well-known astrophysicist at the American Museum of Natural History, said some leap beyond our current technology would be needed to make interstellar travel feasible.

“Routine travel among the stars is impossible without new discoveries regarding the fabric of space and time, or capability to manipulate it for our needs,” he said, adding, “By my read, the idea of a functioning warp drive remains far-fetched, but the real take-away is that people are thinking about it — reminding us all that the urge to explore continues to run deep in our species.”

Still, one of the most dubious is Dr. Alcubierre himself. He listed a number of concerns, starting with the vast amounts of exotic matter that would be needed.

“The warp drive on this ground alone is impossible,” he said.

And he posed a more fundamental question: How would you turn it on?

“At speeds larger than the speed of light, the front of the warp bubble cannot be reached by any signal from within the ship,” he said. “This does not just mean we can’t turn it off; it is much worse. It means we can’t even turn it on in the first place.”

Dr. White, who has never spoken to Dr. Alcubierre, said “I appreciate his thoughts. I don’t know whether I agree with all of his observations, based on some work I’ve done.”

“He and I could certainly debate for a very long time,” he added.
 

thomas91169

# of bans = 5203
Established Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
25,662
Location
San Diego, CA
Rodenberry was a time traveler from the future who got stuck and realized in order to get that future he came from to exist, he would have to give a generation of people the ideas that spark the flame that becomes those inventions.

50-100 years from now we will be so goddamn close to figuring out how to do it, if not sooner. If we could grant Nasa the same budget percentage it had in the 50-60's shit would get done much faster than it is now.
 

Black0ut

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
887
Location
GTEh
Rodenberry was a time traveler from the future who got stuck and realized in order to get that future he came from to exist, he would have to give a generation of people the ideas that spark the flame that becomes those inventions.

50-100 years from now we will be so goddamn close to figuring out how to do it, if not sooner. If we could grant Nasa the same budget percentage it had in the 50-60's shit would get done much faster than it is now.

Or just get Elon Musk to spearhead it (he seems to have taken over everything else in the field anyways).
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
Space is warped around you. Everything in the universe warps space, causing what we know as gravity. Every atom in your body is warping space. So people have their own gravitational fields. Not much of one, but gravity all the same.

Bending space around you= mind blown.....
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
Rodenberry borrowed all his best ideas from the science fiction writers of the day. Sturgeon, Ellison, Gerrold, just to name a few, all wrote for the show. Now what he did do was get all those great ideas out in the popular culture, way beyond the confines of what traditional science fiction book publishing could do.

I think that if we can figure out how to warp space on demand for faster-than-light travel, it will be in the next five-to-ten years.

Rodenberry was a time traveler from the future who got stuck and realized in order to get that future he came from to exist, he would have to give a generation of people the ideas that spark the flame that becomes those inventions.

50-100 years from now we will be so goddamn close to figuring out how to do it, if not sooner. If we could grant Nasa the same budget percentage it had in the 50-60's shit would get done much faster than it is now.
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
Maybe Dr. White is on to something. But in every article I have read, when the reporters get down to asking him how it works, he says he is bound by non-disclosure agreements from revealing too much. So I am dubious about his claims.

In contrast, Miguel Alcubierre, the man who wrote the theory all of this is based on, will tell you _everything_ about his work. To the point that your eyes will glaze over and you start wondering how to escape. But he conceals nothing, and he will answer your questions as long as he has got time to talk to you. And, unfortunately, one of things Alcubierre will tell you is that he has come to the conclusion that it can't be done, at least not in the way his theory is currently presented. And believe me, he would love to be the man who goes down in history as having given the human race warp drive.

But Alcubierre would not be the first scientist to miss something in his own theory, or fail to take it to its fullest conclusions.

So we will see. Sooner rather than later, I hope.

 

TJSwoboda

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
2,537
Location
North Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
If something like an Alcubierre drive is possible, would it allow for causality violations? That is, would traveling to Alpha Centauri in a year in this manner allow for sending information back in time, or does Alcubierre's hypothesis preserve causality?
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
I haven't thought about it much in terms of causality violation. But I'll go out on a limb and say, no, causality won't be violated, and here's why:

It's now everywhere, all the time. We just can't see it because of the light-speed delay.

For example:

Say it takes fifteen minutes to get to Alpha Centauri. The ship leaves "now." It has to go where Alpha Centauri will be "now," not where it looks like Alpha Centauri is now, from here. AC is 4-something light years from here, so in reality, AC will be 4-something years away from where we see it now. So we had better have a good idea of which direction it is moving in.

Anyway, you figure all that out, and when you arrive at AC, in the right place, guess what? It's now. Wherever the ship goes, it is now.

Ok, what about sending messages? If we send a message to Earth from AC in our fifteen minute ship, we must be sending information 4-something years into the future, right?

Nope. It's still now at both ends of the trip. You still needed a ship that could go FTL to get it here*, which means that information did travel FTL, but since it's now at both ends, it does not violate causality.

And now I need a drink.

*It's either "here," or "there," since those are relative terms, but I don't want to get into that now, I need that drink.

If something like an Alcubierre drive is possible, would it allow for causality violations? That is, would traveling to Alpha Centauri in a year in this manner allow for sending information back in time, or does Alcubierre's hypothesis preserve causality?
 

04svtsnke

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
2,154
Location
Winston Salem
Space is warped around you. Everything in the universe warps space, causing what we know as gravity. Every atom in your body is warping space. So people have their own gravitational fields. Not much of one, but gravity all the same.

My entire thought process while reading this was about dragonball z and how every time someone powered up their individual gravitational fields would put massive indentations in the ground and what not.... Seriously, is there a way to alter our gravitational fields without killing ourselves?
 

Riddla

It's for your own protection
Established Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
17,350
Location
Tx
I rather bend women, its more feasible.


It just amazes me how just a specific type of people are capable of thinking and figuring out all this science. While other less developed humans are out there beheading each other. Something needs to happen to get rid of all those useless people.
 

Bandit5.4

Slow driver
Established Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
685
Location
Plano, TX
James, what about "slower-than-light" speeds, ie impulse drives and such? Are those more likely than warp drives?
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
We already have impulse drives. Plain old rockets. And these newer plasma and ion drives. Anything that throws mass overboard is an impulse drive. And they just aren't going to cut it for interstellar travel.

For example, Voyager 1 was launched in 1977. It took it this long just to go 11 billion miles, and that isn't even out of the solar system. 36 years, and it is not in interstellar space yet.

Just for one example of the distances out there:

The sun is 93,000,000 miles from Earth.

If there was a highway to the sun, and if you traveled at 75 miles-per-hour the whole way ... it would take you 139 _years_ to get to the sun.

James, what about "slower-than-light" speeds, ie impulse drives and such? Are those more likely than warp drives?
 

Bandit5.4

Slow driver
Established Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
685
Location
Plano, TX
Obviously you can't build a spaceship with plain old rockets large enough to carry enough fuel to get you there. That's where plasma and ion drives would come in, right? The biggest question is what does it take to move a craft at a fast enough speed to make planet-to-planet travel feasible? The amount of ions you would need to emit to move you forward is impossible with current technology, correct?
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
No, you can carry (and use) all the fuel of a normal rocket with a plasma or ion drive. Where these score over conventional rockets is their efficiency. Basically, with a conventional rocket with, say, ten gallons of fuel, you can get twenty pounds of thrust. With an ion drive and the same ten gallons of fuel you can get forty pounds of thrust, and over a longer period of time.

Ion engines make very low acceleration, but over a long period of time. So you start out with the thrust of a marble on a sheet of paper. Not much. But over the hours, days and weeks, it adds up to serious speed because it is acceleration.

Ion engines will do ok for us in the solar system. Solar sails may be useful, too. But for getting out and about in the wider universe, we're going to need something a lot faster.


Obviously you can't build a spaceship with plain old rockets large enough to carry enough fuel to get you there. That's where plasma and ion drives would come in, right? The biggest question is what does it take to move a craft at a fast enough speed to make planet-to-planet travel feasible? The amount of ions you would need to emit to move you forward is impossible with current technology, correct?
 

Black0ut

New Member
Established Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
887
Location
GTEh
My entire thought process while reading this was about dragonball z and how every time someone powered up their individual gravitational fields would put massive indentations in the ground and what not.... Seriously, is there a way to alter our gravitational fields without killing ourselves?

Ha. I also went in the same direction. However, I focused more on Vegeta teleporting back and fourth. Stupid dragonball....
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
Yes, radio waves are just electromagnetic fields. If they approach the hole within it's event horizon, just like everything else they can never get back out. If they don't get within the event horizon, they don't get pulled in, they just keep on going.

Back in the '70's, I think it was Robert L Forward, did the math and determined that if you had a black hole the size of a galaxy, it's tidal forces would be so small you could enter it without being torn to plasma. Another interesting idea he had was to spin a black hole so fast it formed a toroid shape. He said his math worked out on that, too.

i say lets fly into a black hole just to see what happens

do black holes suck radio waves too?
 

James Snover

The Ill-Advised Physics Amplification Co
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
8,865
Location
Cypress
None that I have found. No one I know has come up with a way to alter gravity. You hear reports, now and then, but so far it always turns out to be an error in the data, in the setup of the experiment, or somebody just got their math wrong. Or blatant out-and-out scams.

Still, we used to think magnetism only came from rocks, now we produce it on demand in any field strength we want. We used to think electricity only existed in lightning bolts. I'm hoping some bright bulb out there figures out a way to make artificial gravity.

My entire thought process while reading this was about dragonball z and how every time someone powered up their individual gravitational fields would put massive indentations in the ground and what not.... Seriously, is there a way to alter our gravitational fields without killing ourselves?
 

Users who are viewing this thread



Top