Engine Braking... what's the final word?

[Andorion]

So - is it ok to Engine Brake, or not? Assume the downshifts are smooth (double clutching.) If it has a NEGATIVE effect on the engine, then it's not OK to do... trading engine internals for brake pads is no question - I'd rather replace the brakes. However, I've not only heard it's not bad for the car, but also that it's good for it! So... what's the deal?

~Berj

 

[Jamie33]

there is no reason to double clutch our T56 gearbox's

a heel and toe downshift will work fine.



and to answer the question, yes it will put more wear on the engine, drivetrain...etc.

engine braking is a myth that started long ago, the brakes are used for braking....use them;-)

 

[Wraith_Cobra]

When done properly the wear caused by downshifting is minimal and will not effect the longevity of the engine or any driveline components. It's not a MYTH, and many people do it to control downhill speed or when slowing to a stop. I usually let off the gas to slow down and down shift at a low rpm when needed using the brakes as necessary. First does not have a syncro and should not be used when down shifting. Down shifting to bring the rpm's up high into the powerband is used for racing and is not needed on the street. This is not the proper way to use engine braking and will cause undue wear on engine and driveline componets.

 

[forane2001]

engine braking

Come on guys, your not driving a peterbuilt with 25 tons on behind you. sure, the more rpm u run the more wear. i prefer to buy brake pads or compromise and not run at wide open throttle all the time:gt:

 

[05 Roush]

Re: engine braking

Originally posted by forane2001
Come on guys, your not driving a peterbuilt with 25 tons on behind you. sure, the more rpm u run the more wear. i prefer to buy brake pads or compromise and not run at wide open throttle all the time:gt:

Agreed. However, I don't think letting the car decel in gear when in the correct gear range is all that bad though. It's when you purposely downshift...that's when the wear comes in.

Living proof: my 85GT has 326K on it and the block hasn't been touched. On the other hand I've put on 3 brake systems since I always used brakes instead of downshifting.

Oh well. :rolling:

 

[Wraith_Cobra]

If I'm crusing in 6th and have to slow becuse of traffic, I let off the gas. If the rpm's drop low enough I down shift, why use the brakes? I need to down shift at that point to accelerate anyway. Going down hill and changing from 6th to 5th or 5th to 4th to maintain speed, why use the brakes? It actually drives me crazy when the guy (or gal) ahead of me is pushing the brakes for two seconds every two seconds going down hill. Even when I'm having a bit of fun, it only takes a heel-toe blip of the throttle to smoothly down shift for a bit of engine braking or to be in a lower gear for accelerating. Being able to down shift properly is an art, why have a manual transmission if you are not going to use one of it's benefits?
__________________
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Coupe

 

[VENOM650R]

Originally posted by Wraith_Cobra
If I'm crusing in 6th and have to slow becuse of traffic, I let off the gas. If the rpm's drop low enough I down shift, why use the brakes? I need to down shift at that point to accelerate anyway. Going down hill and changing from 6th to 5th or 5th to 4th to maintain speed, why use the brakes? It actually drives me crazy when the guy (or gal) ahead of me is pushing the brakes for two seconds every two seconds going down hill. Even when I'm having a bit of fun, it only takes a heel-toe blip of the throttle to smoothly down shift for a bit of engine braking or to be in a lower gear for accelerating. Being able to down shift properly is an art, why have a manual transmission if you are not going to use one of it's benefits?
__________________
Mike
Silver 10th Anniversary Coupe

I agree! Why have a manual if you're not going to shift? Shifters are made to shift up and down. There is no damage if done in the correct rpm range. Someone above said there is no syncro in 1st...wrong. Even the owners manual says you can down shift to first under 15 mph. Frankly, I have more fun executing a smooth down shift than upshifting which anyone can do. I assume those of you that don't downshift due to high rpms ( I don't understand that...why high rpms?) are upshifting at no more than 2000 rpm too so as not to damage your engine? :shrug:

 

[ntechnic]

Properly double-clutching a downshift ALWAYS puts less wear on the transmission than downshifting without a double clutch.

You're talking infinitesimal differences in wear here. I grew up driving non-synchro tractors and trucks, then raced sedans with and without synchros. Personally, I like using all of the tools at my finger and toe-tips.

 

[loose nut]

No problem unless you downshift into too low a gear and over rev. :thumbsup:

 

[Jamie33]

Originally posted by Wraith_Cobra
When done properly the wear caused by downshifting is minimal and will not effect the longevity of the engine or any driveline components. It's not a MYTH, and many people do it to control downhill speed or when slowing to a stop.

the myth that im talking about is people using the clutch and tranny to slow down the car, not the breaking effect the engine has.

 

[SStupid]

Double?

What is double clutching? If I'm going to downshift to pass someone, or get on it real hard, I push the clutch in, match RPMs to an estimate of what I think the next gear will come in at while shifting, get in into the gear I want and let go of the clutch in as smooth of a motion as possible. Is this double clutching? Why is it called that.

 

[SnakeBit]

Engine braking makes a neat gurggling sound which I quickly found out on my 98, to be the engine guzzling oil. I have always used the engine (in addition to the brakes) to slow the car down, but more and more, I'm just using the brakes. My 98 was the worst as far as drinking oil during engine braking, and on the 03, I mostly use the brakes, but for ultimate control, a small amount of engine braking works well and should not cause undue engine wear... unless you pull the stick into 2nd instead of 4th when you're over 80 mph. Then the engine will over rev and no rev limiter in the world will stop that.

And as stated above, we've got a manual transmission. Engine braking is the way God intended for us to slow down.

 

[jonas]

Re: Double?

Originally posted by SStupid
What is double clutching? If I'm going to downshift to pass someone, or get on it real hard, I push the clutch in, match RPMs to an estimate of what I think the next gear will come in at while shifting, get in into the gear I want and let go of the clutch in as smooth of a motion as possible. Is this double clutching? Why is it called that.

thats not double clutching, thats rev matching which is the proper way.

double clutching

clutch in
pull out of gear
clutch out
rev match
clutch in
gear change

you do it on big rigs or sol ass cars or ****ed up trannies that wont go in gear otherwise (dead synchros)

I have been practicing heal toe for a couple months to help me with roadracing. one time i downshifted before hitting a rurn and didnt revmatch doe to some ass divebombing me and slammed it to a lower gear and the back in slid out and i almost dropped a wheel off the track. This is just before I turned during hard breaking which locked the rears for a sec. since then i am constantly heel toeing so it becomes 2nd nature and dont have to think about it on the track

 

[JettRink]

Re: Re: Double?

Originally posted by jonas
thats not double clutching, thats rev matching which is the proper way.

double clutching

clutch in
pull out of gear
clutch out
rev match
clutch in
gear change

you do it on big rigs or sol ass cars or ****ed up trannies that wont go in gear otherwise (dead synchros)

This is correct

 

[Andorion]

I usually downshift at about 2000 to 2500 RPM, so the gear I downshift to is at about 3000 or 3500 RPM - no higher. I always double clutch (never have to really push or pull the stick into gear.)

Could someone explain how this "heel toe" thing works? Heel on the brakes, toe on the gas? Toe on the brakes, swing your heel to blip the gas? I've tried every possible combination... no idea what I'm supposed to do.

I've got the double clutching down to a fraction of a second, though - I now pretty much pump the clutch as fast as my foot can go, and still get out to neutral and get the blip to match RPMs at the right time. Just takes practice.

~Berj

 

[numbaonestunna]

Originally posted by Jamie33
the myth that im talking about is people using the clutch and tranny to slow down the car, not the breaking effect the engine has.

Where's the myth? That people do it? They do. That it works? It does. what do you mean?

 

[Jamie33]

Originally posted by numbaonestunna
Where's the myth? That people do it? They do. That it works? It does. what do you mean?

it is the incorrect way to slow down a car. All it does it put wear on the engine and tranny. A high speed this becomes very dangerous as well..since the rear wheels may lock up, which i have seen happen on local track days.

 

[jonas]

Originally posted by Andorion
I usually downshift at about 2000 to 2500 RPM, so the gear I downshift to is at about 3000 or 3500 RPM - no higher. I always double clutch (never have to really push or pull the stick into gear.)

Could someone explain how this "heel toe" thing works? Heel on the brakes, toe on the gas? Toe on the brakes, swing your heel to blip the gas? I've tried every possible combination... no idea what I'm supposed to do.

I've got the double clutching down to a fraction of a second, though - I now pretty much pump the clutch as fast as my foot can go, and still get out to neutral and get the blip to match RPMs at the right time. Just takes practice.

~Berj

heel toe for me is instep knife of foot. I have big feet

it means braking and tapping the gas at the same time while you clutch in to drop a gear down. Usually done before a turn so you are in power band when you exit.

some words of advice, dont do it mid turn unless you are a friggen god pro racer and never ever brake in any turn as mild as it may seem. at max effort (tires on the virge of whistling)your gonna slide with the slightest braking

 

[Jamie33]

Originally posted by Andorion

Could someone explain how this "heel toe" thing works? Heel on the brakes, toe on the gas? Toe on the brakes, swing your heel to blip the gas? I've tried every possible combination... no idea what I'm supposed to do.
~Berj

it was originally called
"heel and toe" downshifting because way back when, Ferrari had the clutch as the middle petal, not on the left.

right foot on brake, clutch in, as the shifter passes through neutral, blip the gas by roatating your right foot, make the shift, clutch out, all while on the brake.

 

[caveman6666]

Originally posted by Jamie33
there is no reason to double clutch our T56 gearbox's

a heel and toe downshift will work fine.



and to answer the question, yes it will put more wear on the engine, drivetrain...etc.

engine braking is a myth that started long ago, the brakes are used for braking....use them;-)

Yep.