Crower Cams. FML.

[ririck]

Well, this is gonna be a long one, so grab a coor's light, go pee before you start reading, and get ready to read for a little while.

As a lot of you guys know, after I blew a headgasket back in november, I sent my car off to a friend to get fixed, and decided to do some upgrades while the motor was apart. I didn't spare any expenses and replaced all of the gaskets, etc, with stock pieces from ford. We also replaced the springs with Livernois Motorsports Hi- Lift Springs that didn't require an aftermarket retainer.

The only piece that I "cheaped" out on, was a used set of Crower Stage II Cams from a member here. The member assured me that the cams were in good working order, and that he was selling them for a friend. They were removed from an '03 Cobra because the person wanted to go back to stock.

I recieved the cams, and everything appeared to be in order. The cams looked fine, shiny and clean, and to the naked eye, they appeared to be a pristine set of cams just as they were described. The cams also came with aftermarket cam gears, which upon inspection, were cracked. We just got some new cam bolts and went on with the build.

Just to save time, fast forward to dyno day. The car runs fine, idles fine, with a nice lope to it, and everything seems to be going flawlessly. Until we get to about 4800 RPMS. The car just takes a dive in power and never recovers. So KenB at Mod Depot points something out to Rich, who put my engine together. An article on Mod Fords where a member had found problems with a set of Crower Stage 2 Cams, and the manufacturer was giving him the runaround. (Source: [ame=http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45339]ModularFords.com[/ame]) Upon further inspection, Rich discovered that my camshafts were definitely my problem. A Dial put on the lobe of the cams indicated asymmetrical grinds, and a compression test read 130 on all 8 cylinders. My car, with a BAP, Steg Stage 5+ Snakebite, MAC O/R H Pipe, and Borla Catback, was making 450WHP on 21* Timing and 18~psi.

I call crower about the issue and they tell me that it's everything BUT the cams... bad timing, bad springs, bad retainers, bad bottom end, bad tune, anything but the product that they made.

So, Rich put the stock cams back in, and Voila. Torque is back, Power is back, the car is back. It was the cams without a doubt, and I have the dyno sheet to prove it. Please don't flame me, or Rich, for " not checking parts before they were installed", because that's not what this thread is about. It's about an inferior product from a big company. CROWER should have checked the cams before they left their shop, and whoever the seller's "friend" was, who sold me these cams should have never tried to doop me over by selling me a bunch of crap and then getting out of town. This thread is simply here to warn others of what I went through, and to be careful when you buy a used part, or even a high dollar new part, because it could cost you way more than you ever wanted it to, I'm just lucky enough to have some good friends along the way who knew how to help me out. Here's the Dyno sheet. I'm sure you can tell which run is the crowers, and which run is after I put the STOCK cams back.

 

[AntiHeightPunk]

damn that sucks cam labor twice....wow

 

[divided]

Threads like this are exactly why I dont buy used car parts from people on forums. Especially from someone selling for a "friend". They just say that shit so they themselves arent held responsible for the product. Total scumbags.

 

[GodStang]

Buddy had the same problem....the problem was the cams were installed wrong. Can happen to the best shops. That being said its a known fact that 90% of the cam companies out there have sent out a good number of bad cams. This problem is not just crower. You need to check used items before install you are lucky it did not cause more damage than it did. My crowers took 3 or 4 times taking everything apart to get to fit right.

I would go after the guy that sold you the bad items.

As far as crowers response not sure what you were expecting? Did you want them to say off the bat "hey our bad let's us send you another set." You have to realize you bought a used set of cams that for all everyone knows worked fine for someone else for some period of time since they never tryed to return them. Now you have them second hand crower has no idea the history of the cams and you tell them they are bad. How do you and they know? Do you realize how many phone calls they get daily telling them the product is bad and it ends up being something else and not their product. Now if it was a new set and you had receipts and you could prove bad cams like you did than I would expect 100% for them to replace them. So not sure why you started a thread bashing crower you should started one bashing the guy that sold you them.

 

[ririck]

As far as crowers response not sure what you were expecting? Did you want them to say off the bat "hey our bad let's us send you another set." You have to realize you bought a used set of cams that for all everyone knows worked fine for someone else for some period of time since they never tryed to return them. Now you have them second hand crower has no idea the history of the cams and you tell them they are bad. How do you and they know? Do you realize how many phone calls they get daily telling them the product is bad and it ends up being something else and not their product. Now if it was a new set and you had receipts and you could prove bad cams like you did than I would expect 100% for them to replace them. So not sure why you started a thread bashing crower you should started one bashing the guy that sold you them.

I offered to send the cams back to crower so they could look at them. my exact words were like " I'll take them out, ship them to you, and see if you can give me a discount or another set or something, because I just have to get my car back together" and they said " you're just wasting your time, check your springs, etc, because it isnt those cams"

 

[getblowd]

that sucks. hopefully my cam install goes smoothly.

 

[ririck]

that sucks. hopefully my cam install goes smoothly.

I hope so, man! Good luck :beer:

 

[getblowd]

Thanks. lol its more of an everything install lol. Built short block, heads, etc. etc..

 

[ririck]

Thanks. lol its more of an everything install lol. Built short block, heads, etc. etc..

Sounds fun!

 

[FAsnakes]

Glad you sorted this..
Sux, you had to go through it.

Thanks for sharing your story - i won't be buying used cams...

 

[black 10th vert]

Jeez, with all the r&r time, and extra bs, you could have easily bought a new, custom ground set for your application, and still probably came out ahead - at least in aggravation! My general rule when buying used parts, it to NEVER buy used internal parts. I have no problem with used intakes, or most bolt-ons, though, because they are not "wear" parts, and generally just need some cosmetic work to be as good as new.

 

[RPM4DAZ]

My question is. What was wrong with them? Asymetric doesn't make them wrong. Most OHC lobes are asymetrical. Did anyone degree them to check them out? Could they just have been installed and out of phase? The farther you get from a "stock" or OEM component ( the farther out of range from original design intent) the can be larger when not installed right. Do you still have the cams? Call Crower or any good engine builder and have the cams checked as per Crowers specs. They will send you a cam card on the grinds. They just need the numbers off of the cams. They still might good... If they are still good, you could prove it and sell them in good conscience if you still didn't want them in your engine.

 

[rich5150]

My question is. What was wrong with them? Asymetric doesn't make them wrong. Most OHC lobes are asymetrical. Did anyone degree them to check them out? Could they just have been installed and out of phase? The farther you get from a "stock" or OEM component ( the farther out of range from original design intent) the can be larger when not installed right. Do you still have the cams? Call Crower or any good engine builder and have the cams checked as per Crowers specs. They will send you a cam card on the grinds. They just need the numbers off of the cams. They still might good... If they are still good, you could prove it and sell them in good conscience if you still didn't want them in your engine.

The base circle of the cam was way out. Upon rotation, the cam base circle being WAY to big,(by thousands....but still too big) allowed the valves to be partially open... Doing a compression check, each cylinder was at only 130psi. With the STOCK cams, each cylinder was at 175.

I installed the cams myself using a wheel and dial-indicator. I've done multiple cam swaps this way. Every install was dead on.

Pretty simple.

:burn:

 

[ririck]

The base circle of the cam was way out. Upon rotation, the cam base circle being WAY to big,(by thousands....but still too big) allowed the valves to be partially open... Doing a compression check, each cylinder was at only 130psi. With the STOCK cams, each cylinder was at 175.

I installed the cams myself using a wheel and dial-indicator. I've done multiple cam swaps this way. Every install was dead on.

Pretty simple.

:burn:

what he said.

ha

 

[utfan98]

I bought my Crowers used "never installed" and had them spec'd by Livernois and then by the installer, Sean Hyland. Despite opinions, I gained the expected 25 RWHP and am happy.

You should havehad them spec'd. The base circle is the most important measurement to have checked with these Mod motors.

I would have them spec'd even if they were brand new, which I did. I also bought a new set of Comp Cams with me to Hyland's. The Crower's overall spec'd better than the BRAND NEW Comp's. I had to pay a $220 restocking fee just to return the damn Comp's.

 

[rich5150]

I bought my Crowers used "never installed" and had them spec'd by Livernois and then by the installer, Sean Hyland. Despite opinions, I gained the expected 25 RWHP and am happy.

You should havehad them spec'd. The base circle is the most important measurement to have checked with these Mod motors.

I would have them spec'd even if they were brand new, which I did. I also bought a new set of Comp Cams with me to Hyland's. The Crower's overall spec'd better than the BRAND NEW Comp's. I had to pay a $220 restocking fee just to return the damn Comp's.

See my post above... They WERE OUT OF SPEC.

Mine in my old 03 Cobra WERE IN SPEC...which gave me 640rwhp at only 14PSI using a KB 2.2

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/engine-tuning-214/690249-crower-cams-fml.html#post9602218

 

[wilderyzed]

It seems like cams are so hit or miss in these cars. I'll be the first one to tell someone to avoid the time and money of putting a set on one of these cars because of the minimal gains and loss of down low power. But I damn sure had to put a set in when I got em for free :shrug: I put in an original set of fr500 cams with the valves and springs and the whole show. I was astounded to gain 43rwhp on the dyno and at peak hp (669@6400) my torque curve was flat and broad and went from a previous 445 to 548. So in otherwords Im still making 75% of my max torque at my optimal rpm for horsepower. At 669/620 for power the car is a rocket. I have used crower products times before and was always satisfied with the quality of the product. I must say I was very satisfied with my ford cams and as you can see I brag about them whenever possible. Good luck man I would call crower again maybe you just got and ass on the phone who thought he was right maybe someone more knowledgable will help

 

[Cobra_Meth]

When adding cams to these motors the compression drops, that is normal. Mine went from 175psi in every cylinder to 135psi in every cylinder after with less than 5% leak down. It really sounds like the cam's were not degree'd when you installed them to the cam card specs. I had the exact same problem you were having and it was the cam's not being degree'd properly. I had the motor in and out 3 times before we got it right. Now the car made 683hp, 622ft lbs std with the supposed junk cams. Hopefully you went with a good adjustable cam gear some of them out there can be a real headache.

 

[rich5150]

When adding cams to these motors the compression drops, that is normal. Mine went from 175psi in every cylinder to 135psi in every cylinder after with less than 5% leak down. It really sounds like the cam's were not degree'd when you installed them to the cam card specs. I had the exact same problem you were having and it was the cam's not being degree'd properly. I had the motor in and out 3 times before we got it right. Now the car made 683hp, 622ft lbs std with the supposed junk cams. Hopefully you went with a good adjustable cam gear some of them out there can be a real headache.

I don't think you understand what I've measured. The cams WERE installed correctly by me....using a wheel and dial indicator.The BASE CIRCLE OF THE CAM WAS INCORRECT. THE CAMS WERE GROUND WRONG.

Here is an exerpt from John Mihovetz.

This is my recent experiences with Crower cams and Modular engines.........

What I came to find out was what I had speculated, the camshafts just simply were not correct, meaning base circle runout and lobe surface quality..........

Those cams had 3 lobes total out of 32 that I felt were acceptable. Most lobes had runout of .0016-.002 and the worst ones .0028. What that means in simple terms is the valve never closes, and with a rocker ratio of 1.81 as a mulitplier the valve is actually off the seat as much as .005 . Impossible to tune, impossible to pass emissions and impossible to make good power much less maximum power.

........ I am suggesting that if you suffer from the similar running condition as I have described above and have their cams, now you know what to look for. If you choose to purchase their cams, then simply just inspect every lobe as I have described and as long as it meets the maximum runout I have listed with no flat spots or dents, then by all means, run them because they will work. Also use a micrometer and measure the cam journals (all of them) and make sure they are right too. If you don't have the tools, then buy them, borrow them, whatever. IT IS THAT IMPORTANT.
.............


John Mihovetz



You'll have a static-compression loss due to overlap..etc how much air your moving at whatever RPM you have during a compression test obviously, what I've tried to explain was that the cam, being ground wrong, won't let the valves close all the way, the cylinder NEVER fills with a complete charge of air/fuel, thus not making the power it should.

I had the identical cam grind in my 03 cobra, the cams were dropped in, they cams were 108/110 on opposite banks, not enough to need adjustable cam gears.. the car made 640 at the tires @ 14psi with a KB on it.

The cams in chads car were made wrong. :bash:

 

[CodyK7]

A bunch have supra guys have had problems with crower. Their customer support is awful and so is their product.