Brakes

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by 351MachOne
The Cobra R is how much heavier than an 03?

Pretty close to the same weight, give or take a 100 lbs

The numbers dont lie, our cars take 180+ feet to slow from 70mph. If our brakes are good why can a vette do it in under 160??

Brake pad quality and tires makes all the difference in the world!!

More than the horsepower of the engine is the amount of work your brakes can do... Imagine if you could stop TWENTY (20) Feet shorter and avoid an accident, or road debris, pedestrians walking on 4 lane hwys, etc.

Stopping distance is not going to be influenced by power from a given speed. Pad and tire upgrade helps here also.

PLus, if you add ANY more HP you should ALWAYS upgrade your brakes accordingly... Brake systems should be 4 times stronger than the HP of the car.

Yep, but if the brakes are adequate for hauling a car down from 140 mph to 50 mph on the track lap after lap, don't ya think a 70-0 can be handled fine?

Have you ever felt Porshce Brakes? Oh my... talk about eyeballs to the windshield. I had an RX-7 with heavy duty 4piston Alum Race Calipers (STOCK!!), and you could stop that thing on a dime...

Again, what did it have for pads and tires?

I am just pointing out, that for the street you don't need great big brakes. I do have upgraded brakes on my cars (except my 03) but they also see track duty which is many times harder on the system than street duty is.
When you buy a set of Brembo's, ect you can be very sure that they will come with a high (relativly) quality brake pad, so a fair "improvement" you feel will be a result of that.
To give you a idea: a good driver could take a 03 on a track that is hard on brakes and wipe out a set of stock pads in 1 or 2 twenty minute run sessions. You put a good quality pad on the same car and they will probly get a few weekends (running 4 or 5 sessions a day) out of a set of pads, and have a dramatic improvement in performance to boot.
One other item to be considered in comparing figures like this from magazines is what tires do the cars have reletive to each other. The tire contact patch is all that is between the tire and the ground, so tire size and compound will probly weigh into the figures.
I agree safety items are a great place to spend $ as opposed to many other things, but for street duty they are totally not needed on our cars.

Brian

ps. I am not aiming this at any one person, just trying to raise questions so people are aware of the larger picture.

 

[351MachOne]

I will not quote your reply to save on length. I know that tire/pad matter. But in the case of the RX-7 I had Albany (cheapo) pads and Pirelli P6000 tires... Not the best performance tire.

I see that everyone is raving about the Hawk pads. I am interested in the track benefits of good brakes. My car will eventually make it to Road Atlanta.

The reason I relate power to braking is because it is given that with more power you will more likely be driving faster more of the time. Again, I say more likely.

I am glad you are chiming in on this post, I was hoping to get this kind of response on my post, but no one seemed to care. I am pretty stuck on getting some new brakes, but there is a possibility I will try the Hawk Pads first to see if that makes me feel any more confident.

BTW: I am jealous of your Cobra R (2000). Actually I am jealous of your ability to have it as an 'extra'. Does it see much road time? Other than the track, heh.

Thanks.
-Sam

 

[kevin]

i would agree with the above comments of cobra-r.

talking of brakes and stopping distance in a vacuum produces very little effective results. generally, as mentioned, the tire compound and tire patch are relatively large factors in the overall braking evaluation. in addition the tire condition becomes a factor as well. a tire with one heat cycle will grip far differently than a tire with several heat cycles as the tire gets harder with more heat cycles, reducing grip over time. this being said, the overall difference in street driving should be negligible (unless your street racing, which is really not smart with the availability of track time). defensive driving techniques are far more effective on the street than more pistons in the caliper.

if you're planning on a brake upgrade for the track, then the posts above adequatley address the need to upgrade the fluid, pads, and rotors. however, i would disagree with the comment on the slotted rotors. the drilled or drilled AND slotted rotors truely are dangerous for the track as they tend to crack under track duty. the slotted only rotors seem to have proven they are better at cooling and braking than solid rotors and actually last longer (at least on my 00r and my race car) without excessive heat leading to cracking.

there are a lot of folks that run an adequate street pad on the street and swap to a more aggressive track pad when they get to the track. maybe the best idea if you're going to use the car for both.

 

[Petzuk]

While on this brake performance topic, here's an appearance question....

Any advice on caliper painting? What works and lasts? I'd like to make mine red.




:beer: :beer: :burnout: :beer: :beer:

 

[kevin]

Originally posted by 351MachOne
[
The reason I relate power to braking is because it is given that with more power you will more likely be driving faster more of the time. Again, I say more likely.

I am glad you are chiming in on this post, I was hoping to get this kind of response on my post, but no one seemed to care. I am pretty stuck on getting some new brakes, but there is a possibility I will try the Hawk Pads first to see if that makes me feel any more confident.

]

sam, if you go to hawk blues, is it for both street and track or just one. i have run both the hawk blues and the new compound from performance friction (01) on the track. the hawks seem to wear on the rotor far more. the car i'm running the pf01 on, i actually have to replace the pads because they get old and hard rather than wear out. the rotors don't wear much at all and i've had to replace them simply due to heat stress cracks (rather minor, but i've had catostrophic brake failure at speed on a track).

 

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by 351MachOne
I will not quote your reply to save on length. I know that tire/pad matter. But in the case of the RX-7 I had Albany (cheapo) pads and Pirelli P6000 tires... Not the best performance tire.

I see that everyone is raving about the Hawk pads. I am interested in the track benefits of good brakes. My car will eventually make it to Road Atlanta.

The reason I relate power to braking is because it is given that with more power you will more likely be driving faster more of the time. Again, I say more likely.

I am glad you are chiming in on this post, I was hoping to get this kind of response on my post, but no one seemed to care. I am pretty stuck on getting some new brakes, but there is a possibility I will try the Hawk Pads first to see if that makes me feel any more confident.

BTW: I am jealous of your Cobra R (2000). Actually I am jealous of your ability to have it as an 'extra'. Does it see much road time? Other than the track, heh.

Thanks.
-Sam

Sam,
I am so glad you are taking this in the way it is meant, friendly advice. :beer: :beer:

For street try either HPS's or HPS pluss's (they are what I use), if you go to Road Atlanta, upgrade further to Blues. You might want to ask around on other pad brands, I have been happy with Hawk's but they are sorta like tires. Different people have differing opions. (I currently have three brands of pads in my trailer to try for my own comparison)

Good luck, and I hope to be able to run with you on the same track some day.

Brian

 

[kevin]

/

 

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by kevin
sam, if you go to hawk blues, is it for both street and track or just one. i have run both the hawk blues and the new compound from performance friction (01) on the track. the hawks seem to wear on the rotor far more. the car i'm running the pf01 on, i actually have to replace the pads because they get old and hard rather than wear out. the rotors don't wear much at all and i've had to replace them simply due to heat stress cracks (rather minor, but i've had catostrophic brake failure at speed on a track).

Kevin,
What are you seeing as far as a performance comparison between the two pads? Are you going to be totally switching to 01's?

ps. I don't think you ment to imply above that Hawk blue's were good to use on the street, they need heat to be effective. (I know you know this, but wanted to point it out for everyone else's benefitt.)

Brian

 

[kevin]

Originally posted by Cobra-R
Sam,
I am so glad you are taking this in the way it is meant, friendly advice. :beer: :beer:


Brian

ditto.

i used to have pf97 compound pads on my race car and went to the 01's this year.

the hawks seem to "grab" hard and stay that way, similar to the pf97's.

the pf01's seem to grip sooner and hard and hold it longer. it also seem they increase their grip as the heat builds. it takes a bit to get used to but i'm liking them better tan the other pads i've used (this is racing only, not for street use).

 

[kevin]

Originally posted by Cobra-R
Kevin,
ps. I don't think you ment to imply above that Hawk blue's were good to use on the street, they need heat to be effective. (I know you know this, but wanted to point it out for everyone else's benefitt.)

Brian

true. thank you:beer:

 

[KHsonic03]

Cobra R- I never said that I could look at two calipers and tell which one was better. Your comment seemed a bit sarcastic, and I did not appreciate it. I was merely saying that if you were to look at the two side by side, you would see that they share a lot of the same features and quality craftsmanship. That being said, to me, it doesn't make sense to spend more money on the Baer. But you are right, my comment was pure speculation, and the two could perform completely different from eachother. However, from what I have read and heard, the Wilwoods and the Baer's are comparable to eachother. But then again, that is why I started this thread.:dw:

 

[olchakla]

I had just replaced the front pads with Hawk HPS and seen that 3 of the four dust boots had melted away to some respect. Curious to know if anyone else has seen the same problem on the front brakes

 

[351MachOne]

KHsonic03... Sorry for hijacking the thread... Kind of...

I am still waivering on what exactly I am going to do. After hearing so much response to the Hawk Pads, I may have to try them first. 100 dollars is alot less than 1200+.

I am waiting on an insurance settlement from a previous car, So I would haev the money to spend, BUT if I can save a grand and still be satisfied, why not?

I appreciate all the input Brian and Kevin.

Good times... :burnout:

And KHsonic03... The Wilwood piece is a damn good looking unit. Baer Site is broken so I couldnt really read up on them. BTW: I dont think the Wilwood set you are looking at should be so cheap. Check Out Steeda's page under braking. They have a set of 6 piston wilwoods for 2k. I think that is what you will be paying for a kit that will fit your car.

Otherwise check this out... Brembo 4 Piston . Whaddya think?

-Sam

 

[351MachOne]

Originally posted by olchakla
I had just replaced the front pads with Hawk HPS and seen that 3 of the four dust boots had melted away to some respect. Curious to know if anyone else has seen the same problem on the front brakes

Wow, did your stock pads do that? And how hard were you braking? That is sad to see, I hope mine dont look similiar.

 

[KHsonic03]

351MachOne- I checked with Wilwood for the part number, then did a search to find the cheapest supplier. Summit has it for $1243 and Precision Brakes has it for 1208. The kit ends with 6155-D.

 

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by KHsonic03
Cobra R- I never said that I could look at two calipers and tell which one was better. Your comment seemed a bit sarcastic, and I did not appreciate it. I was merely saying that if you were to look at the two side by side, you would see that they share a lot of the same features and quality craftsmanship. That being said, to me, it doesn't make sense to spend more money on the Baer. But you are right, my comment was pure speculation, and the two could perform completely different from eachother. However, from what I have read and heard, the Wilwoods and the Baer's are comparable to eachother. But then again, that is why I started this thread.:dw:

To be honest, my comment was kinda tounge in cheek in respect to being able to make a judgement between brake kits based on looks. If I offended you, I trulely apologize. I was not trying to demean you, but make a point that brakes are way more complicated than alot of people realize and can't be judged on few peoples opinions or observations. Most of us could put any one of these kits on our cars and "think" they are the greatest thing in the world, but until you compare systems on the same car, with the same tires, with the same pads, ect, we really can't tell what is good and what is better.
My direct experience is limited to Brembo's four piston kit and the stock PBR brakes. Part of my point to 351 was that pads make more difference (on the street and light track usage) than which kit you use.
I agree that spending $5000 for a brake kit is pretty steep and there are better alternatives for people at our level of driving (ie: not racers), but spending $1200 for street duty is also overkill to the Nth. degree as well.

olchakla,
That melting is normal and is going to happen on any caliper exposed to the temperatures encountered on the track and hard street use. My brembo calipers are melted also, they are just dust boots and does not signal a caliper is failing. Race calipers arent equipted with dust boots, thus no melting.

Brian

 

[KHsonic03]

I fully agree with you. You cannot judge a brake by simply looking at it, and the whole subject of braking is much more complicated than I probably realize. I actually spent a great deal of time tonight reading about braking, and have learned quite a bit just from that. I also retract my statement about 14" brakes not being worth it, because there are many more factors to take into consideration than just unsprung weight and rotating mass, such as heat dissipation and heat sink. I guess it really comes down to your application on what kind of pad/kit/rotor you should go with. I need to do more research before I make my decision. I guess my original point was in regards to the Brembo 2000 Cobra R kit. I was originally going to go with it because of its compatibility with our vehicles, but when I saw the Wilwood kit for $100 more, I didn't understand why the prices were so similar(I still don't). I still would like to upgrade my brakes, it is just a matter of how/what/why.

 

[351MachOne]

Right, Me too. I agree with Brian that 6piston might be overkill. But 1200 dollars is cheap for brakes. Im still waiting for a response from Pro3i on the 4piston Brembos. I will probably use them for compatibilities sake.

Thanks eveyone.

 

[Cobra-R]

Do you have any desire to track your car? If so, watch for track events that are going on in your area and go to them. Even if you don't want to drive, the people at these events are great and I am sure you will see most of the brands of brakes you are considering and can talk to (maybe even ride) people with cars with each setup. Another thing to ask is what pads the people are using and how much they cost, in tracking brake pads are replaced very often and most people will have answers for you off the top of thier head. Also keep in mind what the person is running for tires, track tires will make a car feel like it brakes better just because of thier traction. (everything else equal)

Good luck, I wish you best in your decision, Brian. :beer: :beer:


btw: just to make one point clear. I installed Brembo's on my car for thier ease of changing pads. They are a good brake setup (remember my limited experience with anyhting else besides PBR's except for riding in cars with other systems) but they really arent that much of an improvement over PBR's (with good pads ).

 

[kevin]

Originally posted by KHsonic03
[I need to do more research before I make my decision. I guess my original point was in regards to the Brembo 2000 Cobra R kit. I was originally going to go with it because of its compatibility with our vehicles, ]

i need clarification here. are you talking about the original one piece 2000r brake rotor (aside from the claipers)? if you are, we need to talk. the one piece is not good for the track. if that's what you where talking about, let me know. rather than go into the long discussion right now, i'll wait to see what you say here.