Advice on Self Defense - Concerning Recent Thread - LEO Only

[357cstang]

Looking for the opinions of our resident LEOs. Recently this thread:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/road-side-pub-17/832476-ex-girlfriend-destroyed-my-mach.html

has received significant attention. Some of the "tougher" users have advocated use of deadly force when the seemingly crazed young man left his truck and went to attack the driver of the Mach 1 with a knife.

Given the circumstances, and knowing that the OP left the house he was in to move his vehicle, leading the other party on a cat and mouse game, and in my opinion instigating it further, would you recommend drawing a firearm and potentially killing the other person?

I can't see the courts liking a person in a motor vehicle, which runs, approving of a person shooting a man on foot with a knife. Even if the person claims they felt their life was endangered, I can't see the defense being as cut and dry as say someone cornered in their home.

Sorry for hypothetical, but I don't agree with people claiming he should have shot the others and want to make sure I'm not crazy.

 

[CSD]

You're not crazy. :rockon:

If I was in the same exact situation as Monster Mach, I would have driven my vehicle in the opposite direction and notified police of my current location and situation.

If I initiated an MV stop and the driver exited and approached my vehicle wielding a knife, I would back up enough for me to exit my patrol car, unholster my firearm, and order the subject to drop his/her weapon. Doesn't comply? Then I shoot to kill.

 

[FordSVTFan]

You're not crazy. :rockon:

If I was in the same exact situation as Monster Mach, I would have driven my vehicle in the opposite direction and notified police of my current location and situation.

If I initiated an MV stop and the driver exited and approached my vehicle wielding a knife, I would back up enough for me to exit my patrol car, unholster my firearm, and order the subject to drop his/her weapon. Doesn't comply? Then I shoot to kill.

You would shoot to kill? Really? I have never trained someone to shoot to kill. A L.E.O. should only use reasonable force necessary to stop the threat. Their intent should never be to kill. Although sometimes when using the reasonable force necessary to stop the threat it results in death, that should not be the intent when drawing your firearm.

 

[Outlaw99]

You're not crazy. :rockon:

If I was in the same exact situation as Monster Mach, I would have driven my vehicle in the opposite direction and notified police of my current location and situation.

If I initiated an MV stop and the driver exited and approached my vehicle wielding a knife, I would back up enough for me to exit my patrol car, unholster my firearm, and order the subject to drop his/her weapon. Doesn't comply? Then I shoot to stop the aggression.

fixed

 

[svtcop]

fixed

It was the tanning goggles. Makes it hard to see the keys when typing. :shrug:

 

[Devious_Snake]

i read that thread too, OP had said the truck blocked him in at some point....if you can get out of there do so, but you dont have to run away if you are in fear for your life, you defend yourself! in the words of ivan drago " if he dies, he dies" :shrug:

sometimes it happens

 

[svtcop]

i read that thread too, OP had said the truck blocked him in at some point....if you can get out of there do so, but you dont have to run away if you are in fear for your life, you defend yourself! in the words of ivan drago " if he dies, he dies" :shrug:

sometimes it happens

Just remember that the original thread is full of inaccuracies, reads like someone with a.d.d wrote it and you MUST consider the source.

And if you're gonna quote Dolf Lundgren it's gotta be from Universal Soldier. :lol:

 

[Devious_Snake]

Just remember that the original thread is full of inaccuracies, reads like someone with a.d.d wrote it and you MUST consider the source.

And if you're gonna quote Dolf Lundgren it's gotta be from Universal Soldier. :lol:

oh absolutely, thats why you have to take it as its said, we dont know the true story for sure....

that was a good one....:beer:

 

[CSD]

You would shoot to kill? Really? I have never trained someone to shoot to kill. A L.E.O. should only use reasonable force necessary to stop the threat. Their intent should never be to kill. Although sometimes when using the reasonable force necessary to stop the threat it results in death, that should not be the intent when drawing your firearm.

The situation warrants the use of deadly force with the purpose of causing, or knowing it will create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm.

 

[FordSVTFan]

The situation warrants the use of deadly force with the purpose of causing, or knowing it will create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm.

Sorry, I do not know of any agency/dept that says in their use of force policy that deadly force is used with the purpose of causing death.

Force, not matter the level is used to stop the threat. The force used escalates based on the perceived threat.

As a prosecutor I had an officer state on the stand that he shot to kill (even though the suspect didnt die) and the defense attorney tore him apart using their own agency training manual and the jury acquited based on that statement almost entirely.

 

[CSD]

Sorry, I do not know of any agency/dept that says in their use of force policy that deadly force is used with the purpose of causing death.

It's written in the NJ Attorney General Use of Force policy.

Force, not matter the level is used to stop the threat. The force used escalates based on the perceived threat.

I know.

As a prosecutor I had an officer state on the stand that he shot to kill (even though the suspect didnt die) and the defense attorney tore him apart using their own agency training manual and the jury acquited based on that statement almost entirely.

I feel like I'm on the stand right now! :lol1:

Obviously my intent is not to kill the subject, but stop him. However, the word 'purpose' is used when defining deadly force.

 

[FordSVTFan]

It's written in the NJ Attorney General Use of Force policy.

I have attached the NJAG Use of Force Policy below and nowhere does it say that a L.E.O. should shoot to kill.

http://www.njdcj.org/agguide/useofforce2001.pdf

Obviously my intent is not to kill the subject, but stop him. However, the word 'purpose' is used when defining deadly force.

"Purpose" as used in the guidelines goes to the L.E.O.s knowledge not their intent.

The entire reasoning behind my posts is to inform and that as L.E.O.s we should never shoot with the intent to kill, but to stop the threat.

 

[357cstang]

So how about the original idea of a civilian shooting in this case?

 

[CSD]

I have attached the NJAG Use of Force Policy below and nowhere does it say that a L.E.O. should shoot to kill.

http://www.njdcj.org/agguide/useofforce2001.pdf

I never said the policy states 'shoot to kill.' This is what I originally said:

The situation warrants the use of deadly force with the purpose of causing, or knowing it will create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm.

"Purpose" as used in the guidelines goes to the L.E.O.s knowledge not their intent.

The entire reasoning behind my posts is to inform and that as L.E.O.s we should never shoot with the intent to kill, but to stop the threat.

Agreed. Shame on me for thinking 'shoot to kill' wouldn't be taken out of context on a car forum.

I'm taking my boxing gloves off now. You win :bowdown:

 

[Outlaw99]

hey, i heard snooky is pregnant.

 

[CSD]

hey, i heard snooky is pregnant.

I hope her delivery goes well, the last thing she needs is a situation.

 

[Devious_Snake]

So how about the original idea of a civilian shooting in this case?

same applies, you use deadly force not with the intent to kill but knowing it could.

remember these words, " i was in fear for my life"

 

[FordSVTFan]

I never said the policy states 'shoot to kill.' This is what I originally said:

Agreed. Shame on me for thinking 'shoot to kill' wouldn't be taken out of context on a car forum.

I'm taking my boxing gloves off now. You win :bowdown:

You said it in a L.E. Forum that happens to be within a car forum as a Verified LEO.

 

[CSD]

You said it in a L.E. Forum that happens to be within a car forum as a Verified LEO.

Yes, thank you.

 

[Outlaw99]

I hope her delivery goes well, the last thing she needs is a situation.

icwutudidther