2005 AI rules are out

[b_tone]

and they have outlawed the KB IRS to AIX only so our little blue car is now out of the running for AI ever again. We build a better mousetrap and everyone freaks out so they outlaw the thing. I feel we got hosed. Oh well what should I expect.

bpt

 

[ac427cobra]

and they have outlawed the KB IRS to AIX only so our little blue car is now out of the running for AI ever again. We build a better mousetrap and everyone freaks out so they outlaw the thing. I feel we got hosed. Oh well what should I expect.

bpt

Brian:

Sorry to hear that! :bs: That kinda sucks!! You'll go back to the Ford IRS I presume? Do they let you run Delrin bushings in the stock configuration? Is the KB THAT much of an improvement over the stock IRS?

Good Luck!

 

[Flying Fred]

and they have outlawed the KB IRS to AIX only so our little blue car is now out of the running for AI ever again. We build a better mousetrap and everyone freaks out so they outlaw the thing. I feel we got hosed. Oh well what should I expect.

bpt

Brian (and Mark): Sorry to see they did that to you guys. :mj: Since I've had KB's rear suspension in my car for a year and a half, that obviously bans me as well. At least I won't lose any sleep this winter trying to decide about AI. :sleeping:

Jeremy and I have talked about AI and agreed that one of the big drawbacks is you never know when they will change the rules. In fact, JB says that's a huge reason why he chose AIX so he wouldn't have to worry about arguing over every item.

 

[kevin]

well that's doo :dw:

 

[NJ2000R]

on what basis? seems like rules are changed to benefit (or penalize) specific parties? :shrug:

 

[93SVTCobra]

Well I have to say they did exactly what I expected them to do and I honestly do think the rule was directed at us. I do believe there are some conclusions draw without truly looking at all the data and anyone running an IRS in AI based on the rules would be a fool.

Based on the inconsistances we have experienced with NASA and AI over the last two years we have decided to put our efforts towards the American V-8 Supercar Series. It looks like a cool class and the race format is VERY different. Stay tuned......

www.av8ss.com

 

[ac427cobra]

Good luck in the new series Mark and Brian!!

Mark, quick question for you? Why does it show Auto-Bahn on May 21 & 22?

http://www.av8ss.com/schedule1.htm

Isn't that the SVTOA event date? Are we running on different tracks there?

:thumbsup: :coolman: :beer:

 

[93SVTCobra]

We will be running on the same track. They will be one of the run groups during the weekend.

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Well I have to say they did exactly what I expected them to do and I honestly do think the rule was directed at us.

we have decided to put our efforts towards the American V-8 Supercar Series.

That really stinks when an organization changes the rules a few months after someone builds one of the nicest cars around. IMO, I believe the new rule was entirely directed to Brian and you. You have been a huge contributor to the promotion of the NASA series. I think Dan S. (av8ss) will be the big beneficiary of NASA's decision. I know Gene said he really enjoyed the av8ss VIR event he attended earlier this fall.

When I started racing you had SCCA and a couple of small vintage groups. Now a guy can almost race every weekend in 12 or so vintage groups and several late model groups. SCCA had a lot to do with making many racers go elswhere. You could rarely find an O/T event, and now I think there must be 15-18 groups doing O/T. Only the series that cater to the paying customer(s) will survive. :fm:

 

[Dean95CobraR]

That really stinks when an organization changes the rules a few months after someone builds one of the nicest cars around

I don't want to get into this a whole lot but that statement is not exactly true. In reality (IMHO), the opposite is true. They would have had to change the rules to allow the car to run. Of course, there are a lot of people who disagree with my statement. http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18666 (long thread)

Now that I have said that, I wish they would have changed the rules so the KB IRS would be legal. As long as the IRS is available to everyone, I think they should legalize it.

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Dean,
I may have missed something in the rule book. I post at c-c.com. I also post at nasaforums.com. I don't think anyone ever actually found the violation in the rulebook? Isn't it legal unless prohibited in the rulebook?

Other racers look at this and think "why build a fast car if it could be determined illegal after I race it"? Mark/Brian/? built the car and were very nice to post pics and specs (who else does that?). They have been very supportive of the series. IMO, it just ain't good PR for others that are not involved now but may be thinking about entering. OK, I am on the outside looking in and may not know all the facts. That said; it just doesn't seem right. They lost my trust.

The most successful vintage group in the south has been a great success (and very profitable for the owners) because they look for safety and try not to penalize those that want to go fast. They would never outlaw a car although they have asked that no more be built (and grandfather the cars that are already built). You can just build something else in another class. You know your car will always be able to compete. You know that the value of the car (should you decide to sell it) will not go down because the car is "outlawed". This particular group just finished the biggest vintage race at Sebring as well as the longest enduro in vintage history. I guess at least 250 cars were entered (at $400-650 entry fee per car). It's a healthy series (maybe because people trust the rulemakers).

Just a thought....Doc... :??: :shrug:

 

[Dean95CobraR]

Dean,
I may have missed something in the rule book. I post at c-c.com. I also post at nasaforums.com. I don't think anyone ever actually found the violation in the rulebook? Isn't it legal unless prohibited in the rulebook?

They pointed out the actual rule and quoted it. It's really a moot point anyway. It's a done deal. I just didn't want people casually reading this thread think that AI changed the rule just so they couldn't run their car.

The one thing that really concerns me is that someone told them that it was legal when in my opinion, it pretty much spells out that the frame rails can not be cut.

That's all that I'm saying about all of this. I consider Brian and Mark friends and I don't want them to think I'm against having their car in the series. It's a raw deal no matter how you look at it. I wish the rules would have allowed their car to be in AI.

Adios. :beer:

 

[93SVTCobra]

I look at it this way. What does REALLY bother me is that during the construction of the car we asked a LOT of questions about grey areas in the rules and received answers to all of them. One of those grey areas was the notching. We proved that the notching offered no competitive advantage other than allowing the suspension to complete it's travel. The car was no lower than any other car out there. IMHO only allowing it in AIX was a simple cop out and that was was done so that we couldn't say that the car was outlawed completely. I'd REALLY like to know what logic was used to relegate the modification we made to AIX only. Sad part is that I'll never get the real answer but will instead get the "If you don't like the way things are done then go run somewhere else answer" that NASA officials are famous for. Well guess what? We are going to run somewhere else and as long as NASA keeps on their present course I believe that many are going to be following us, perhaps not to AV8SS but they won't be running NASA.

If you want to see someone raise hell with AI rules just wait. The new rules outlawed a few cars that are currently running so it should be interesting when they find this out.....

Dean - I believe our friendship is stronger than our thoughts of legality of a car so don't worry about what you say.

 

[MidLifeC]

Mark and Co, good luck with the new series. I was following the progress of your car so I could learn more about the IRS.

... and here I thought you would have some shiny new parts for sale if you stayed in AIX...

 

[Flying Fred]

One of those grey areas was the notching. We proved that the notching offered no competitive advantage other than allowing the suspension to complete it's travel. The car was no lower than any other car out there.

Mark, here's a bit of history with my car that you may find interesting. I installed KBs rear suspension in July 03 - before I knew squat about NASA. I was debating (again) on whether to enter AI or not next year. In fact the car is being "AI prepped" this winter including a legal roll cage, fire system, cut off switch, etc. It is now a moot point - unless I want to run AIX. The only way I could be competitive in that class is by having everyone else break down all the time. Not exactly the way to try and win.

As for notching, I disagree with their decision and here is why. My frame was NOT notched, because KB never told us it should be. Well it just so happens I was doing NASA's TT at Putnam in October and noticed something wrong with the back end. I bring it in and we quickly note that the rear control arm broke - and you guessed it - where it was hitting the frame! (Ask BPT, he was there and saw it). KB was very good about standing behind their product and sent us replacements. This time Doug notched the frame when he redid the whole thing (about a month ago). Some can argue whether notching gives you an advantage or not, but the reality is that the rear suspension will eventually break if you don't. I would hope NASA would understand that the notching needs to be done for safety sake, not that it will yield a huge performance difference (which we seriously doubt). Do you think it would be worth sharing my experience with NASA rule makers and ask them to reconsider?

 

[Dean95CobraR]

I look at it this way. What does REALLY bother me is that during the construction of the car we asked a LOT of questions about grey areas in the rules and received answers to all of them. One of those grey areas was the notching.

That is the part that I am the most disappointed in. If they would have told you from the start that it would not be legal, then all of this would not be going on. I don't understand how they could go back on what they said. :shrug:

Dean - I believe our friendship is stronger than our thoughts of legality of a car so don't worry about what you say.

I know that but I didn't want you or anyone else misunderstanding what I was trying to say. The racing weekend won't be the same without you guys there. :cryying:

 

[93SVTCobra]

Fred - I don't know if it will do any good but you can certainly give it a try. The part I find humorous is that NO ONE else makes replacement arms for the IRS except KB and you can't use the KB arms without notching the frame so exactly which aftermarket arms are legal for AI?

 

[Flying Fred]

Fred - I don't know if it will do any good but you can certainly give it a try. The part I find humorous is that NO ONE else makes replacement arms for the IRS except KB and you can't use the KB arms without notching the frame so exactly which aftermarket arms are legal for AI?

Any suggestions how to go about that? Should I post on NASAforums or try to directly contact someone? Point me in the right direction and I'll be happy to do it. Maybe if they hear this from multiple sources, they'll reconsider. Besides, it can't hurt to ask again.

I also agree with Dean... it would be ashame not to have you guys at AI events. I'm pretty much bound to NASA, not AV8SS, unless Jeremy decides to switch. (He's the major partner of the tow rig, so I follow where he leads.)

 

[stang99svt]

I find that interesting as well. So essentially you can run the KB stuff if you don't notch the frame.(?) Is that what I reading through here?
Or that the design of the KB IRS is just not legal at all for AI.

 

[Flying Fred]

I find that interesting as well. So essentially you can run the KB stuff if you don't notch the frame.(?) Is that what I reading through here?

I don't know the rules as well as Mark or Brian T, but I CAN tell you from personal experience that running KB's rear IRS without notching the frame will almost guarantee that something breaks over time (at least in a 2000 Cobra R). So unless you are stupid enough to want your car to break, you have to notch it. Otherwise there is insufficient travel distance of the suspension under hard cornering (i.e. control arms will bang against the frame). For those who have yet to make the conversion and want to run AI, they have a choice. For others like me who made the conversion a long time before knowing this rule, your SOL.