Anyone heard of S/C 5.0 letting go?

[kevinp]

Came to correct myself and you beat me lol. I just read that these cars run closed loop al the time. Wow, be different than tuning my 91 when first thing I do is turn off the o2's while tuning lol

Its pretty cool for sure, I used BS3s and gen7s on my LS cars and they both had closed loop wideband at WOT (or anywhere you wanted to use it) but they used only a single sensor. I would get a season out of an LSU sensor with the BS3 using C16 so I'm hoping with unleaded they last a long time in these. I have to check the price on them but on a FI/nitrous car I dont think replacing them once a year would be a bad idea if they are priced reasonable.

I was a little hesitant to try the WOT open loop fueling on those standalones a few years ago, but once I started using them its a great thing to have, especially when adding boost or swapping cams to get a baseline instead of just guessing on a VE table and working your way up.

The new ECU is pretty sophisticated overall and adjusts on the fly pretty quick, too bad Ford didnt put a two step and low impedance injector drivers in too

As far as cam timing I'm sure they do change it to lower the DCR at higher RPM, thats what BMW does as well to be able to use 91 octane with 12:1 compression. I'm not sure if tuners are fooling with cam timing on blower apps though, I dont have access to the cam tables with the PRP software. But the Roush and FRPP tunes that keep the warranty may play with cam timing, but I'm sure they are very safe tunes overall. If you have a stick car the warranty is nice, unfortunately with an auto you dont have that option which seems odd but it is what it is.

 

[JDV]

Not always. Just depends on the owners wish but many use canned or custom mail order tunes. Most are probably based on custom tunes that have been done by the tuner though.

However I think your right on the canned tunes. It's my guess that is a contributing factor to some issues.

On the canned tunes the knock sensors were too low when they first came out. S/C cars are always dyno tuned.

 

[kevinp]

Not always. Just depends on the owners wish but many use canned or custom mail order tunes. Most are probably based on custom tunes that have been done by the tuner though.

However I think your right on the canned tunes. It's my guess that is a contributing factor to some issues.

I just have a mail order tune, car will never see a dyno. But like you said its based off the tunes VMP uses on their own TVS car.

 

[JDV]

Thanks Kevin. Never realized that some stand alones where doing that. My experience is limited to tunerpro and a quarterhorse in EEC (Moates is local to me and good friends with my brother)and a little dabble with my brothers turbo lt-1 camaro (900rwhp 383). Always wondered why they didn't use a PID style control with widebands more often to finer control rather than the stoich switch style. Is GM beginning to do the same also?

Seems I've hijacked my own thread, but you've caught my attention on a different path lol

 

[JDV]

Same here. No one i trust close enough to me. I'd dyno it at my buddies shop who only does GM tuning and have vmp, or whoever, make changes I needed after i sent datalogs, etc, if inabsolutely had to. Did it with RWTD with my terminators but I doubt I seek out every last HP outta this one. I'd rather it safe and warrantied by roush lol! Since it's my DD also

I just have a mail order tune, car will never see a dyno. But like you said its based off the tunes VMP uses on their own TVS car.

 

[SaleenGT2001]

just installed the KB on mine yesterday and hoping for a long life with the stock engine

 

[kevinp]

Thanks Kevin. Never realized that some stand alones where doing that. My experience is limited to tunerpro and a quarterhorse in EEC (Moates is local to me and good friends with my brother)and a little dabble with my brothers turbo lt-1 camaro (900rwhp 383). Always wondered why they didn't use a PID style control with widebands more often to finer control rather than the stoich switch style. Is GM beginning to do the same also?

Seems I've hijacked my own thread, but you've caught my attention on a different path lol

As far as I know GM is still using narrowbands for part throttle/idle fueling, MAF/VE table for most WOT. (2008 was my latest GM ECU I played with) VW, honda and a few other imports have been using widebands for years. Not sure if they are using them for WOT corrections though - I'm not an import guy at all.

My guess is Ford made the switch for emissions and fuel economy reasons, I'm sure the direct injection engines need the more precise feedback as well. I'm sure their concern is sensor life, but from what I see if one goes dead it uses the value from the other to get by, if they both crap it goes to some style of open loop based on long term fuel trims and MAF. there is no MAP sensor, so no speed density to fall back on either.

These ECUs also have individual cylinder spark and fueling, something I liked with the gen7/BS3 as well, pretty handy when you start tuning close to the edge.

Its not really a hijack, the more you know about how the ECU handles the fueling can make you sleep a little better after bolting a blower, or lose sleep depending on how nervous newer technology controlling your car makes you

 

[JDV]

Haha. I'm all about technology on control systems. Was my trade way back when. I think that as soon as this cbr is outta my garage, I'm gonna be ordering up a TVS.

 

[kevinp]

Haha. I'm all about technology on control systems. Was my trade way back when. I think that as soon as this cbr is outta my garage, I'm gonna be ordering up a TVS.

I'm not trying to sell anything, but honestly this 2011 with the TVS is one of the funnest cars I have had in a while, my last 'fast' street car was a 8.90 98 trans am with a 347 LS1/F1A/TH400. That was a great car, still had power steering, brakes, windows, stereo and drove decent. But with the rod end suspension rattling away, no sound insulation, AC, 10pt cage, marginal cooling system, 5500 non lock-up converter or OD, race seats etc it wasnt fun for long distances.

I know with the 82mm (9psi) pulley and drag wheels tires this will be an easy mid-low 10 second car with no suspension or major weight reduction at sea level. And that is pretty cool if you ask me. I was going to do a procharger but the PD blower really ups the low end grunt on these, no matter what its still only 300cid and a 3600lb car. The PD blower makes 5 liters feel like a 500cid caddy engine around town - except it will pull hard to 7500rpm. Its a great combo.

Downside is I have no warranty on the powertrain, but like a rather famous drag racer once told me 'if you cant afford to push your car off a cliff and walk away smiling you shouldnt be fooling with cars.' Luckily I can fix what break, not looking forward to it though since parts arent exactly cheap for the trans or engine but after 11 years of paying the GM LS and corvette tax its not too bad

 

[JDV]

I pretty much agree with ya but I have never paid that tax, as you put it lol. My brother did, quite alot hahaha. Even n/a, this thing is more fun than my pullied 525rwhp 03 cobra was. I can't wait to see what the tq feels like and how fun it'll be.

I am going to keep the roush cal in it awhile though and kep the roush warranty. You can't beat that if you ask me. I've got a friend who is ASE certified and has his own shop whose gonna install it for me so keeping their warranty isn't hard for me to do

If it breaks, I'll fix it (labor isn't covered). Even if I gotta buy parts, I'll fix it to make it faster and better suited for boost then and dial it uP a notch lol!

 

[1bad04cobra]

just installed the KB on mine yesterday and hoping for a long life with the stock engine

Nice! Been waiting for someone to get one. Have any numbers?

 

[jayman33]

Did you install the KB youself? I'm stuck between the KB and Whipple but I know if I want more power in the future KB would probably be the way to go. Where in NC are you? I would like to come take a look if you don't mind, that would hopefully help me make my decision.

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

I know of 2 guys with blowers who have melted their stock cats and blew the engines. I'm guessing that most guys going FI are using O/R pipes anyways.

 

[Riptide]

I've read a guy with a whipple blew his up. Was around 690 @ the tire so yes he was pushing the limits lol. Tuning shops have blown up more you just don't hear about it as much. They seem pretty stout. I'm curious to see how well they do over the next few years as more people get them and put on power adders.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatwat

 

[JDV]

I know of 2 guys with blowers who have melted their stock cats and blew the engines. I'm guessing that most guys going FI are using O/R pipes anyways.

What else was done to these? Who where the tuners? Why did the cats melt and engines blow? Need info please. Will not be changing anything else, so no O/R pipes.

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

What else was done to these? Who where the tuners? Why did the cats melt and engines blow? Need info please. Will not be changing anything else, so no O/R pipes.

Happend to this guy

My Kenne Bell 2.8LC blower - The Mustang Source - Ford Mustang Forums

But he's being pretty tight lipped about the details. ST motorsports tuned it (according to his sig)

I can't rememeber who else this happened to. I read it but didn't reply so it's not it my subscribed threads list.

 

[kevinp]

Any FI, nitrous, or NA car can melt the cats out, I've dont it myself a couple times with blowers. If you run it too rich they start lighting off the unburned fuel and melt into a lump or start vaporizing and break up and start blowing chunks out the exhaust and can plug up the mufflers. Running lean can damage them as well but most FI cars dont have that problem. Thats why they are so concerned about misfires in late model engines, raw fuel will kill the cats in short order, no different that trying to be safe with an FI car and running 10.5:1 a/f. Run it rich and you will kill the cats - guaranteed.

Generally plugged cats wont kill an engine, all the backpressure will contaminate the cylinder with exhaust and the power will just go away. Engines dont break because of plugged exhausts, if that was the case a too small turbo exhaust housing would blow up and engine and not just choke off high RPM power. Its what caused the cats to melt that hurt it most likely.

I refuse to have my car smell like a 79 pickup truck with the cats cut off, if I have to go to a higher quality replacement cat I will but I'm not goiing ORY on a daily driver.

 

[Turbosixx]

I'm patiently awaiting my Roush TVS from VMP as I type this.

If I had a manual car I would have got it from Roush to retain the warranty. But like Kevin said, it is what it is.

Now if you're experienced in tuning/racing and you're very conscience about your state of tune, you should have no problem keeping the 5.0 together. Another words, monitor your tune, know your tune, knowing what it takes to keep it together goes a long way.

 

[JDV]

Generally plugged cats wont kill an engine, all the backpressure will contaminate the cylinder with exhaust and the power will just go away. Engines dont break because of plugged exhausts, if that was the case a too small turbo exhaust housing would blow up and engine and not just choke off high RPM power. Its what caused the cats to melt that hurt it most likely.

/agree. Melted cats are a sign up way too rich, which means it shouldnt have blown up then, unless it was way to much timing. The two cant be related any way that i can rationalize in my head.

 

[JDV]

If I had a manual car I would have got it from Roush to retain the warranty. But like Kevin said, it is what it is.

Well, i have a manual, and am thinking about the TVS with warranty atm. However, after talking to roush and my local roush ford dealership, im not having warm and fuzzies about the warranty. Ford stated flat out that the blower would void drivetrain warranty. Known and understandable. Roush says, and ill try to quote here "If its proven that the blower caused the breakage...". That scares me. How do you prove the blower caused a piston to break?

Whats sad, i can replace the shortblock myself, can afford it and have the knowledge to pull the wrenches myself. I do not, however, want to pay a dealership 2 grand to pull my motor and pull it apart only to have both roush and ford point fingers at each other and me get stuck with the bill for that and still have to rebuild and reassemble it myself. Right now, im making my decision, basically, like there is no warranty at all. That 2 grand would buy pistons and rods and gaskets and the rest is just time on me.