Why would a remote tuner need my 13 GT ECU shipped to him to "flash it directly"?

[crjackson]

Unfortunately I don’t know enough about tuning and your post is too vague to draw any conclusion.

What specifically is too vague? I’m not a tuner or customer. I can only pass along what I’ve heard and believe to be creditable. It’s impossible for me to impart precise information that’s beyond my own knowledge. I edited my original post to hopefully bring more clarity.

You should reach-out to him directly if you want precise information about his tuning services.

 

[Mapster429]

SOLVED!

In any event, I solved my 02/H02 problem myself. I will post on my original thread for others who have this problem in the future. The bottom line is endlessly repeating the Ford Drive Cycle is not the solution - it's contributing to the problem.

To clarify - the issue is that in certain 13-14 Mustangs the 02 and H02 sensors refuse to "ready" for emissions evaluation. Without exception these cars have some exhaust mods ranging from H pipe/cat back, axle back, or like mine, just mufflers. No matter how many Ford Drive Cycles are performed the 02/h02 monitors wont ready.

SOLUTION: The problem seems to be the modified free flowing exhaust prevents the cats from getting hot enough - for long enough for the 02 and H02 tests to run. The Ford Drive Cycle contributes to this because it keeps the speeds between 40-65 MPH and thus the RPMs and load are too low to build and maintain sufficient cat temp.

Normal driving and the Ford Drive Cycle on my car produces cat temps (as measured via my nGague) typically between 650-1050-degrees Fahrenheit. From my tests on my car (bone stock 13 auto with Ford 13-14 GT500 mufflers) it appears minimum cat temps of 1250, and better 1350+, best 1400+, are necessary for 15 mins, followed by 15 mins of normal 40-65 mph driving (700-1100 cat temps) for the 02 and H02 tests to both start and complete.

I note the necessity of normal driving because it seems the cats need to get hot for the test to start then run at lower speeds for the test to complete and the 02 and H02 to show ready. In my tests they won't show ready until after the heated cats cool off in 10+ mins of normal driving.

On my car to get and maintain this cat temp (1325+) for 15+ mins this requires sustained 80+ mph for over 90+ minutes, or driving a warm car at 3k-4k rpm in 2nd or 3rd gear for 15 mins while monitoring cat temp and adjusting the throttle accordingly to keep the temp in range. I suspect this is not necessary for stock exhaust cars to ready because they have increased exhaust backpressure. Thus, if you have a more modified exhaust, such as a cat back, you may need greater rpms to get cat temp in the range I describe.

Note it takes some time and rpm to heat the cats up to the range and then slightly less rpm/throttle will keep them there but if rpm/throttle drops below 3k the cats can cool 300-500 degrees in just 15 seconds so consistency is vital. I don’t know what impact momentary dips below this range will have on the readiness process but these 02 and H02 sensors are sensitive little bitches so I recommend you strictly stay within range.

Also note though I list my rpms and gear it seems to me the real driver of cat temp is load. Cats will get hotter easier and faster driving up a long hill and conversely will be faster to cool with the same RPM going downhill. So really, I think monitoring cat temp while driving is a must to do this accurately and reliably. Otherwise, I guess you can just drive a warm car at 3500 rpm for 20 mins but that's kinda winging it.

How I came to this understanding is I went on a 4-hour drive and the 02 and H02 went ready after about 2 hours of steady 80+ mph. They did not go ready in the preceding 2-hour drive with traffic where my speed fluctuated between 40-80 mph. I was monitoring the cat temps and 02/H02 readiness the whole-time given recent conversations with a local tech and the unnamed tuner pointed to modded exhaust as the problem. After the drive I cleared the monitors and performed the high rpm/low gear drive the next day using cat temp as my guide. I kept them above 1350 and got the 02 and H02 to ready after about 10-15 minutes of high cat temp driving followed by 10 mins of normal driving.

I then cleared my monitors again and repeated with the same driving test with the same result in the same time. So, after repeating results 3 times I think it’s problem solved (God willing, knock on wood.)(I’m not taking any chances!)

It's been a long 2+ year siege to solve this f&%*ing problem. I've had the three-best local “Mustang guru” tuners look at the car, a Ford Service lead tech who was befuddled and consulted with Ford Corporate, and several experienced local mechanics look at the car with no consensus other than start throwing parts at it ranging from spark plugs and 02 sensors to the new cats and ECU. Only my last local mechanic, along with the unnamed tuner, both pointed to exhaust mods which gave me the clue cat temps may be the solution.

LUND racing, who I imagine must know of the importance of cat temps – at least if they’re as good as they advertise - would not take any time to help me despite that I'm their customer. Or maybe it was just above their knowledge/ skill set – I don’t know – but they could have at least tried to help.

Many forums have threads of this issue with frustrated owners like me but no solutions short of returning the engine and exhaust to 100% stock then it corrects itself. Owners perform countless Ford Drive Cycles desperate solve the problem to no avail. Problem is in states like NY the car must pass the test every year so returning the car back to stock yearly is a real burden. A few said they sold their car in frustration. I was considering this myself.

I hope this is truly the solution for everyone with this problem and this thread helps others in the future.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Best regards and good luck!

 

[Mapster429]

I hesitate to try and explain all this because I‘m not the customer(s), and I can only relay 3rd hand information. I just know that you can’t delegitimize a tuner for requesting to have the PCM in hand.

It’s definitely out of the norm. for most tuners, but don’t count them out without researching why.

Thanks for what you could provide. It's helpful.

I hope no one interprets my question as besmirching the unnamed tuner or any other tuner that needs the ECU - I simply didn't know enough to evaluate the request on my own so I started this thread.

Seems like it's a legit request for tuners of the highest skill set and expertise such as @decipha.

 

[Mapster429]

Not sure where you're located, had you considered:
.
mustang magic ny - Bing

1. 160 Brook Ave, Deer Park, NY 11729 · ~81.9 mi
   (631) 254-3430
   .

Yes I did. They tune and have a dyno but they didn't see the need to data log my car - but they did drive it for 5 mins with a scan for the O2 readiness.

Instead they suggested I start changing parts beginning with the upper and lower O2 sensors, then the cats.

A tech there told me of a recent customer of theirs who had to remove a supercharger, full exhaust, tune etc back to 100% stock to get his car to pass.

I declined to go in that direction and they were cool about it. They obviously have lots of experience with mustangs but not with this problem.

 

[decipha]

Off the top of my head theres any number of reasons why a tuner would physically need the ecu.

If the vin needed to be updated or if needed for emissions. Any commercial tuning device will automatically set a referee or fail emissions if taken to a real emissions obd2 compliant test like california does. Only writing the ecu directly with a custom tune written as stock will allow it to pass properly.
Fixing any tunes that prevent a proper crankshaft sensor / clutch relean.

Fixing cruise control or abs faults caused by some custom tunes.

If the ecu memory is corrupted or if the stock tune isnt stock or working correctly.

if only minor changes need to be done to an already existing tune.

If the owner doesnt want a handheld for a vehicle that is near stock with known parts where a simple modified tune is all thats needed.

If the tune is "locked" and needs to be unlocked. Very common with the diesel guys as those handhelds prevent even ford from rewriting them correctly.

If the bootloader or non tune areas of memory need to be fixed or modified. No commercial tuning device can access those areas of memory.

If a base tune needs to be written prior to tuning. Usually for those diy tuning with hptuners but any other software that reads the current tune out to begin modifying. For example hpt only gives you access to about 500 or so parameters usually. SCT is usually around 2500 parameters. Using other methods you can access over 50,000 parameters. Its easiest to make those changes and write the ecu directly then read it out and tune it rather than adding all of those custom defined parameters to the software.

And lastly which is the most obvious but to physically test the inputs and outputs of the ecu to make sure its physically functioning correctly and visually inspect the board and traces for any damage.

 

[1 Alibi 2]

In other threads, I have commented that cold starts are more important than miles driven..

 

[Mapster429]

Off the top of my head theres any number of reasons why a tuner would physically need the ecu.

If the vin needed to be updated or if needed for emissions. Any commercial tuning device will automatically set a referee or fail emissions if taken to a real emissions obd2 compliant test like california does. Only writing the ecu directly with a custom tune written as stock will allow it to pass properly.
Fixing any tunes that prevent a proper crankshaft sensor / clutch relean.

Fixing cruise control or abs faults caused by some custom tunes.

If the ecu memory is corrupted or if the stock tune isnt stock or working correctly.

if only minor changes need to be done to an already existing tune.

If the owner doesnt want a handheld for a vehicle that is near stock with known parts where a simple modified tune is all thats needed.

If the tune is "locked" and needs to be unlocked. Very common with the diesel guys as those handhelds prevent even ford from rewriting them correctly.

If the bootloader or non tune areas of memory need to be fixed or modified. No commercial tuning device can access those areas of memory.

If a base tune needs to be written prior to tuning. Usually for those diy tuning with hptuners but any other software that reads the current tune out to begin modifying. For example hpt only gives you access to about 500 or so parameters usually. SCT is usually around 2500 parameters. Using other methods you can access over 50,000 parameters. Its easiest to make those changes and write the ecu directly then read it out and tune it rather than adding all of those custom defined parameters to the software.

And lastly which is the most obvious but to physically test the inputs and outputs of the ecu to make sure its physically functioning correctly and visually inspect the board and traces for any damage.

Thanks for that info Decipha - you've cleared this confusion up nicely!