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SVT Shelby GT500
Who Is It That Modifies The Intake Manifold/Intercooler?
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<blockquote data-quote="FischerMotorspo" data-source="post: 16090971" data-attributes="member: 130669"><p>So, I have a pretty decent memory... and intuition. Yep, Sqidd is the same guy (Jason Etter, owner of Department of Boost) that contacted me back in 2016 with his "I'm not trying to bust your balls. If I were I would make this discussion public" BS. Well Jason, here's your chance....</p><p></p><p>Attached is the contact I have had with Jason (Sqidd) when he reached out in the past, this was our first and only encounter until here. You guys can judge aptitude, knowledge, and motive for yourselves.</p><p></p><p>We have a high standard of doing things correctly and with responsibility. I call out BS wherever I see it, and feel that those watching should be aware of it. All industries need to be held to higher standards with their claims and what they push; our industry is no different.</p><p></p><p>Jason, stating something is inaccurate or false doesn't magically make it so. I'm going to make these points as simple as I can for the highest probability of everyone grasping the concepts.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)">[bcolor=transparent][/bcolor]</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)">[bcolor=transparent][/bcolor]</span></span></p><p>This is a very simple concept. When you "dual pass" a core, half of the core has "fresh" coolant flowing INTO it, and the other half of the core has coolant that is warmer flowing INTO it. This is because the coolant flowing into the second pass has already had heat transferred to if from the first pass. A single pass core will cool the IAT more when BOTH HALVES of the core are flowing "fresh", cool coolant into them as opposed to one half flowing "fresh" coolant and the other half flowing already heated coolant.....</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The other designs on the market are dual pass. Fact.</p><p>Our base setup in single pass will flow EQUIVALETN TO or higher depending on the CORE"S WATER RESTRICTION than a -16 dual pass. Also Fact.</p><p></p><p>For the inlet fittings:</p><p>Our base setup of a single pass core with a single -16 inlet has equivalent fitting internal cross-sectional area for flow as the other dual pass core setups with a single -16 inlet. Fact.</p><p></p><p>For the outlet fittings:</p><p>Two -12AN fittings equal one -16 fitting.</p><p>Our base setup of a single pass core with a dual -12 out has equivalent fitting internal cross-sectional area for flow as the other dual pass core setups with a single -16 out. Fact.</p><p></p><p>For the core:</p><p>Our base setup with a single pass core has twice the cross sectional area for the flow path in the core than the other dual pass core setups because on a dual pass core, half of the available cross section of the core is used for the first pass and the other half of the cross section of the core is used for the second pass. This is all a fact.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, since the inlet and outlet fittings are equal in cross sectional area for flow, this leaves the variance to the core. If the dual pass system's coolant flow rate is below the coolant flow capacity of half of the core, than our single pass core setup will flow EQUIVALENT to the dual pass core setup. If the dual pass system's coolant flow rate is beyond the coolant flow capacity of half of the core, than our single pass core setup will flow HIGHER than the dual pass core setup. because of flow restriction across the core and the resulting increase in pump head pressure that reduces it's efficiency and flow rate. Fact.</p><p></p><p>NEWSFLASH! Per Honeywell-Garrett, optimal flow rate of the core is 60 gpm+!….. You stated previously and documented in our attached conversation that you have been unable to flow more than 27gpm though the dual pass configuration. I'm going to go wAy oUt oN a lImB hErE and suggest that this is likely because you are only flowing through HALF the available cross-section of the core and HALF the possible cross-section of the inlet/outlet fittings!!!... Your 27 gpm x2 is 54 gpm… figure in the reduction of head back pressure on the pump due to DOUBLING the flow cross section and I'll bet you it picks up the additional 6 gpm and possibly more!</p><p></p><p>A side note for those curious... Honeywell Garett cores are one of if not the most efficient and best designs on the market. They were originally designed for commercial aviation air conditioning systems with extremely high design and manufacturing requirements, however, even their cores are prone to failure with inadequate water flow and or inadequate cool coolant flow in extreme (hot and high pressure) conditions. This is due to localized boiling and resulting thermal stress on the core. This issue is more prevalent on lower quality cores and is a common occurrence for high boost race vehicles that increasing the flow rate often cures.</p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left">Your comment on -12 outlets being a restriction when used with a -20 outlet is an attempt to marginalize and manipulate what has been presented. Nowhere did we say that we recommend a -20 inlet in conjunction with two -12 outlets.</p><p></p><p>The statement of a single -20 being equivalent in flow to two -16 outlet fittings is correct.</p><p>You also left out an important part of my quote: "This would flow more than the other systems on the market." This is referring to the -20 inlet and dual -16 outlets we offer making this statement also Fact.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)">This is not so common "common sense" and logic... and was already addressed above. "Aftermarket Cooling Systems" (Ice water, larger capacity, high flow pump IC coolant systems) negate this argument. Dual pass only has a place in the discussion regarding smaller capacity coolant systems that constantly recirculate their small volumes using ambient air heat exchangers, like the stock setup, hence Ford's design. Their heat exchanger, IC core, and pump flow are all engineered to work in concert. Application largely drives why things are done the way they are... never mind the separate discussion on the notorious GT500s stock IC and coolant system heat soak issues.[/bcolor]</span></span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Until you run the inlet and outlet fitting sizes up, then the single pass makes all the difference in the world..…</p><p></p><p>A dual pass will have more restriction in flow than a single pass regardless of flow volume and rate. Are you really arguing that there is NO increase in friction or pressure drop when flowing through half the cross-sectional area and twice the length of core as a single pass?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh really? Please enlighten us as to how else you are going to get your dual pass system to flow at or anywhere near 60 gpm on the GT500 platform?</p><p></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)">[bcolor=transparent][/bcolor]</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204)">[bcolor=transparent]</span></span></p><p></p><p>I don't think your intentions are to be entirely misleading / dishonest. I personally think that most of the issue here is that you aren't as smart as you think you are and likely feel threatened on a business front. When you couple that with your reading and comprehension issues and a motive to mislead, we land here, where your approach and statements get viewed as hostile and are treated accordingly. I also don't doubt that you've put a lot of effort into figuring out what you think you know, however, I see people draw incorrect conclusions all the time at the track by assuming variables or misunderstandings physics / thermodynamics. As soon as I meet someone that thinks they know it all, I immediately recognize that they aren't bright enough to realize how little they actually know. Personally, the more I learn, the more I realize how complex a subject is and how little of the overall available knowledge on that subject that I possess. Said another way, the more I learn, the more I discover that I don't know.</p><p></p><p>I'll say the same thing I said to you before. If I am mistaken of your intentions, please correct me. If your intentions are genuine, my advice is to tailor your approach to new contacts better and let's start over from a clean sheet.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FischerMotorspo, post: 16090971, member: 130669"] So, I have a pretty decent memory... and intuition. Yep, Sqidd is the same guy (Jason Etter, owner of Department of Boost) that contacted me back in 2016 with his "I'm not trying to bust your balls. If I were I would make this discussion public" BS. Well Jason, here's your chance.... Attached is the contact I have had with Jason (Sqidd) when he reached out in the past, this was our first and only encounter until here. You guys can judge aptitude, knowledge, and motive for yourselves. We have a high standard of doing things correctly and with responsibility. I call out BS wherever I see it, and feel that those watching should be aware of it. All industries need to be held to higher standards with their claims and what they push; our industry is no different. Jason, stating something is inaccurate or false doesn't magically make it so. I'm going to make these points as simple as I can for the highest probability of everyone grasping the concepts. [left][size=4][color=rgb(204, 204, 204)][bcolor=transparent][/bcolor][/color][/size][/left] [left][size=4][color=rgb(204, 204, 204)][bcolor=transparent][/bcolor][/color][/size][/left] This is a very simple concept. When you "dual pass" a core, half of the core has "fresh" coolant flowing INTO it, and the other half of the core has coolant that is warmer flowing INTO it. This is because the coolant flowing into the second pass has already had heat transferred to if from the first pass. A single pass core will cool the IAT more when BOTH HALVES of the core are flowing "fresh", cool coolant into them as opposed to one half flowing "fresh" coolant and the other half flowing already heated coolant..... The other designs on the market are dual pass. Fact. Our base setup in single pass will flow EQUIVALETN TO or higher depending on the CORE"S WATER RESTRICTION than a -16 dual pass. Also Fact. For the inlet fittings: Our base setup of a single pass core with a single -16 inlet has equivalent fitting internal cross-sectional area for flow as the other dual pass core setups with a single -16 inlet. Fact. For the outlet fittings: Two -12AN fittings equal one -16 fitting. Our base setup of a single pass core with a dual -12 out has equivalent fitting internal cross-sectional area for flow as the other dual pass core setups with a single -16 out. Fact. For the core: Our base setup with a single pass core has twice the cross sectional area for the flow path in the core than the other dual pass core setups because on a dual pass core, half of the available cross section of the core is used for the first pass and the other half of the cross section of the core is used for the second pass. This is all a fact. Therefore, since the inlet and outlet fittings are equal in cross sectional area for flow, this leaves the variance to the core. If the dual pass system's coolant flow rate is below the coolant flow capacity of half of the core, than our single pass core setup will flow EQUIVALENT to the dual pass core setup. If the dual pass system's coolant flow rate is beyond the coolant flow capacity of half of the core, than our single pass core setup will flow HIGHER than the dual pass core setup. because of flow restriction across the core and the resulting increase in pump head pressure that reduces it's efficiency and flow rate. Fact. NEWSFLASH! Per Honeywell-Garrett, optimal flow rate of the core is 60 gpm+!….. You stated previously and documented in our attached conversation that you have been unable to flow more than 27gpm though the dual pass configuration. I'm going to go wAy oUt oN a lImB hErE and suggest that this is likely because you are only flowing through HALF the available cross-section of the core and HALF the possible cross-section of the inlet/outlet fittings!!!... Your 27 gpm x2 is 54 gpm… figure in the reduction of head back pressure on the pump due to DOUBLING the flow cross section and I'll bet you it picks up the additional 6 gpm and possibly more! A side note for those curious... Honeywell Garett cores are one of if not the most efficient and best designs on the market. They were originally designed for commercial aviation air conditioning systems with extremely high design and manufacturing requirements, however, even their cores are prone to failure with inadequate water flow and or inadequate cool coolant flow in extreme (hot and high pressure) conditions. This is due to localized boiling and resulting thermal stress on the core. This issue is more prevalent on lower quality cores and is a common occurrence for high boost race vehicles that increasing the flow rate often cures. [left][size=4][color=rgb(204, 204, 204)] [/color][/size] Your comment on -12 outlets being a restriction when used with a -20 outlet is an attempt to marginalize and manipulate what has been presented. Nowhere did we say that we recommend a -20 inlet in conjunction with two -12 outlets.[/left] The statement of a single -20 being equivalent in flow to two -16 outlet fittings is correct. You also left out an important part of my quote: "This would flow more than the other systems on the market." This is referring to the -20 inlet and dual -16 outlets we offer making this statement also Fact. [size=4][color=rgb(204, 204, 204)][/color][/size] [LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(204, 204, 204)]This is not so common "common sense" and logic... and was already addressed above. "Aftermarket Cooling Systems" (Ice water, larger capacity, high flow pump IC coolant systems) negate this argument. Dual pass only has a place in the discussion regarding smaller capacity coolant systems that constantly recirculate their small volumes using ambient air heat exchangers, like the stock setup, hence Ford's design. Their heat exchanger, IC core, and pump flow are all engineered to work in concert. Application largely drives why things are done the way they are... never mind the separate discussion on the notorious GT500s stock IC and coolant system heat soak issues.[/bcolor][/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT] Until you run the inlet and outlet fitting sizes up, then the single pass makes all the difference in the world..… A dual pass will have more restriction in flow than a single pass regardless of flow volume and rate. Are you really arguing that there is NO increase in friction or pressure drop when flowing through half the cross-sectional area and twice the length of core as a single pass? Oh really? Please enlighten us as to how else you are going to get your dual pass system to flow at or anywhere near 60 gpm on the GT500 platform? [left][size=4][color=rgb(204, 204, 204)][bcolor=transparent][/bcolor] [bcolor=transparent][/color][/size][/left] I don't think your intentions are to be entirely misleading / dishonest. I personally think that most of the issue here is that you aren't as smart as you think you are and likely feel threatened on a business front. When you couple that with your reading and comprehension issues and a motive to mislead, we land here, where your approach and statements get viewed as hostile and are treated accordingly. I also don't doubt that you've put a lot of effort into figuring out what you think you know, however, I see people draw incorrect conclusions all the time at the track by assuming variables or misunderstandings physics / thermodynamics. As soon as I meet someone that thinks they know it all, I immediately recognize that they aren't bright enough to realize how little they actually know. Personally, the more I learn, the more I realize how complex a subject is and how little of the overall available knowledge on that subject that I possess. Said another way, the more I learn, the more I discover that I don't know. I'll say the same thing I said to you before. If I am mistaken of your intentions, please correct me. If your intentions are genuine, my advice is to tailor your approach to new contacts better and let's start over from a clean sheet.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT] [/QUOTE]
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Who Is It That Modifies The Intake Manifold/Intercooler?
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