That 03 Cobra did well, running 16psi. On a whipple is a waste! Both car are to be respected. 2013 Gt500 has over 70 more cubic inches to
Whippled 600rwhp Terminator hung with me...
- Thread starter 13RaceRedShelby
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I'm curious about this because SVT got a waiver on the durability test (20 minutes between redline and maximum output) on the Terminator. I wonder what parameters Ford uses on the new crop of FI engines. Their argument at the time was you would either run the tank out long before that or the driver would be dead on public roads. I can't see the 5.8 outputting 660 hp on a contuinual basis for 20 minutes and surviving.
Keep in mind Ford pushed the 5.8 to the limit to achieve that displacement and the 13 GT500 is "pullied" from the factory compared to the 03. I would be very reluctant to mod a 5.8 like I would a 4.6 or 5.4 and would keep it more or less stock. 1 injector leans out and the block goes in the dumpster or gets sleeved making the walls between the bores even thinner than they are.
Then again at 660 hp why would you want to mod a 5.8 GT500 engine in the first place :rockon:
HMM, the Term. got a waiver on the durability test??? I seem to remember in Coletti's book that the motors we're blowing on the Dyno so they brought in the expensive Mahle parts for durability. Lent my copy out so I can't ck. it now. Hell, I blew 2 Term. motors, including a Ford Re-man. with 1500 miles and no abuse, Ford sweated me but covered it...... Go figure
No, the issues was with the OEM rods not the pistons and was resolved long before they submitted the engine for durability test.
Are you suggesting the 4.6 Terminator engines are fragile? :dw:
Who Me?? Ha Ha.. I was on Term. engine # 3 when I sold the car in dead stock form. [It sure did have a great suspension set-up] Does that make them fragile??? I miss my Term. every day
But getting the GT500 is like getting a new GF :banana:
Terminator Who? :shrug:
LOL :burnout:
Alot of modded 2013-14 GT500s are here, making 700+ RWHP. Any blown?
I don't know. How many 700+ hp 5.8's are out there?
What I was getting at was the expense involved with a block that can't be bored or having to sleeve the whole block when a piston fails and scores a cylinder which is the #1 failure mode in an FI engines
I noted a while back how few where putting big blowers or running big boost on their 5.8 compared to the Cobra and early GT500 guys which is actually quite common. I'm sure there are a some but they seem few are far between. Something tells me most 013 owners agree with me and more or less leave the engine alone.
You will see more and more big blowers being installed on the 13/14s as time goes on.
And why would you want to modify a 662hp mod motor?? Because we can and HP is like a drug you will always want more! You eventually get bored with whatever power level you are at. Yes I said bored.
And why would you want to modify a 662hp mod motor?? Because we can and HP is like a drug you will always want more! You eventually get bored with whatever power level you are at. Yes I said bored.
Not saying i want a fair fight.
Why did you think I'd want to run a 13 form 40-110? I want the advantage! I got a liitle headroom as my rev limiter is set just north of 6700 RPM. So I figure the race is over once my rev limiter kicks in.
Also a blast to 110 is short, sweet, and realitively safe, thought most cops would disagee.
Why did you think I'd want to run a 13 form 40-110? I want the advantage! I got a liitle headroom as my rev limiter is set just north of 6700 RPM. So I figure the race is over once my rev limiter kicks in.
Also a blast to 110 is short, sweet, and realitively safe, thought most cops would disagee.
Termi motor vs. 5.8 Durability.
Termi motors suffer from poor heat rejection in the heads and pistons siezing due to to tight Piston to wall. Pistons are ok but not as good as the 13 pistons, so I am told.
A lot of rocket sciece has bee done of the Powder metal "forged" 13 rods. Seems like all the early concern was not waranted. The spacing between bores on a 5.8 just scares me though. The 13 needs 3.73 gears for just putting around. +60 in first is too tall.
Considering the Fox platform that should have had welded factory subframes on the Termi, the 03-04 Cobra had a heck of a suspension for a 2003 Mustang.
The 03 sure could use the current Z28 brakes however. For that matter, so could the 13-14 GT.
I hope Ford adresses the braking gap between Ford and GM.
03 is crude, loud, lacks build quality, brakes kinda suck, and you can break them at 600 hp, but I'm in no hurry to sell.
Termi motors suffer from poor heat rejection in the heads and pistons siezing due to to tight Piston to wall. Pistons are ok but not as good as the 13 pistons, so I am told.
A lot of rocket sciece has bee done of the Powder metal "forged" 13 rods. Seems like all the early concern was not waranted. The spacing between bores on a 5.8 just scares me though. The 13 needs 3.73 gears for just putting around. +60 in first is too tall.
Considering the Fox platform that should have had welded factory subframes on the Termi, the 03-04 Cobra had a heck of a suspension for a 2003 Mustang.
The 03 sure could use the current Z28 brakes however. For that matter, so could the 13-14 GT.
I hope Ford adresses the braking gap between Ford and GM.
03 is crude, loud, lacks build quality, brakes kinda suck, and you can break them at 600 hp, but I'm in no hurry to sell.
Not sure what you meant by "poor heat rejection" in the heads I have never heard this :shrug: Perhaps you can elaborate.
Does the 5.8 carry the same PWC as the 4.6 @ .001"? :nonono: The 4.6 OEM Pistons were the first thing to go because of it. Replacing the pistons with lose fitting aftermarket slugs fixes that.
It appears the issue with PM rods was resolved with the early GT500. This is what nearly killed the Terminator. PM rods are not something I would run out and buy but it's pretty amazing Ford was able to get them to survive in this engine.
Our bore spacing sucks!:cuss: The bean counters would not allow the engineers to stray from the basic mod motor geometry so they would not have the expense of re-tooling as much. This motor needs more bore and less stroke.
...........and how!
This statement got me scratching my head. The stock Cobra brakes for the street are pretty good no one complains. The early GT500 are even better and I image the 013 is better yet (it better be the rotors weigh 32 lbs ea :uh oh
. Does the Z28 Chebby stop faster?As an electro-mechanical design engineer who has been thru every nut & bolt, wiring harness, mechanical assemblies on this chassis I can tell you straight up the build quality of the Terminator is very good. The fact the stock block is good to about 600 rwhp and the T56 hold-up very well in 800 hp cars is a testament how robust the driveline is. I think your confusing the integrity of the chassis with the term quality. The SN95 is a wet noodle chaissis compared to the S197. I agree it is not as refined as the GT500 but in a performance car that is not necessarily a bad thing.
600whp is not the safe limit of the Cobra motors? Wtf are you guys smoking?
I have to disagree, the 03/04 can handle way more then 600whp safely. The only problem I ha e known with the engine was the few that had the infamous "tick" problem, I had my car compression tested ect at Ford just as the warranty ended to be sure I didn't need the head replacement as some did but my car was good to go. I think the car all around is an excellent car as far as design and reliability but maybe some people have different opinions.
you have a 5.8 L motor, with a tvs from the factory pullied at a decent amount of boost already. From all the recent post, the tvs is supposed to be king and destroys the 2.3 whipple.
You also said, that the cobra was running 16lbs of boost. If the cobra was only running 16lbs of boost on a 2.3L and kept up with your car, then that cobra was damn strong. On big blowers, running 16lbs, is just a waste on a 4.6L motor. THis has been debated over and over for the past 10 years in the terminator community. The twinscrew starts to shine at 19lbs on our small motors. From broke7,big turkey, venomous03cobra, aj, jimmy v, its been shown at the track and that's what I go by. 16lbs and peak number is 600rwhp, I think a ported upper lowr eaton would keep up with that twinscrew. Too low of boost. I know so many low boosted twinscrews vs 18lb eaton races, the outcome, and so much other stuff that were offered to the heavy hitter eaton guys. I just can't bring it up on public forums. That's a different story.
There is no need to get disappointed. The 13GT500 is bad ass. Its just too much money for me and for a mustang or else I would have one. a twinscrew cobra is still no joke. It may be 10 years old, small motor, etc, but its still a beast of a car. If 16lbs was fast, imagine him on 19, where the big blower really starts to work. But then again anything can happen on the street. Your car probably is faster.
I love my 03 cobra and everywhere I go people ask me if its a new style mustang. I still get thumbs up and people still turn around when I drive by. Its a timeless look, timeless car with a lot of history that started this whole war over again.
fast mark with the single turbo blue cobra went through many motors, and finally went back to a reman cobra engine and started to run 8's again at the track with no problems. On modularfords, there are twinscrew cobra's with 100,000 miles that still run low 10's on stock motor. My own car makes 710rwhp through a little piece of crap 4.6 that's screaming to make that 700 and its still alive after 10 years of a million combinations. My car also has the "tick". I can go on but people get the point.
Like I said though, if I was rich and had money, I would buy a 13GT500 and park it next to my 03 cobra. BUT, I would NOT sell my 03 cobra
fast mark with the single turbo blue cobra went through many motors, and finally went back to a reman cobra engine and started to run 8's again at the track with no problems. On modularfords, there are twinscrew cobra's with 100,000 miles that still run low 10's on stock motor. My own car makes 710rwhp through a little piece of crap 4.6 that's screaming to make that 700 and its still alive after 10 years of a million combinations. My car also has the "tick". I can go on but people get the point.
Like I said though, if I was rich and had money, I would buy a 13GT500 and park it next to my 03 cobra. BUT, I would NOT sell my 03 cobra
I'm not sure why you think your car has a piece of crap 4.6, I think it's been great and have owned mine since 03 brand new. If you're making 700+HP then I'm sure your car has walked many in the past and will continue too for time to come. I have my 03 Cobra, 08 GT 500 and my 13 GT 500 parked together in one of my garages and I love them all for different reasons and don't view one as better then the other. The 13 is definitely an incredible car from factory and even better in modded form, I feel proud sitting at the light in anyone of them! It is interesting to hear that you have the tick and still running strong since evryone made such a big deal back then about it, here's to many more miles to you sir!:beer:
There has been some improvements since 03 (Need to move this to Termi section)
For a fellow opinionated engineer, Full subframe connectors help, I know as it was one of my first mods. I understand the S197 has a double floor reinforcements in certain areas and does not need Subframe connectors. The Camaro, being derived from the Holden Chassis are tanks. (Yeech)
Paint body panel fit, some interior pieces, electrical switches, & switch gear sending units, things like the power window design, etc. reflect the common pony car which the Mustang Cobra is derived. Not horrible, and the current GT 500 is better still but not mid 1990's Honda quality IMHO.
I like the 13 interior, just not crazy about the retro steering wheel. (Or the so 1990's 03 Cobra wheel)
Not sure what you meant by "poor heat rejection" in the heads I have never heard this :shrug: Perhaps you can elaborate.
Both coolant flow distribution, and total coolant flow has been increased on the heads since 03 especially with the 13. Aftermarket water pumps and a and extra coolant connection on back of 4V Cobra heads help.
"This statement got me scratching my head. The stock Cobra brakes for the street are pretty good no one complains. The early GT500 are even better and I image the 013 is better yet (it better be the rotors weigh 32 lbs ea :uh oh
Z28 is a stripped down tank, still a dedicated track monster, that reportedly can do +20 laps with no brake fade. As a street car with 400 hp ,Cobras and current Mustang Gt's are fine, but 03 brakes on a 600 hp car that basically accelerates as hard at 120 as it does at 60 is kinda scary. If I could afford to put money into my Cobra, it would be Brakes, 26 Spline and an RTX clutch.
(Fancy rims with Michelin's too)
"As an electro-mechanical design engineer who has been thru every nut & bolt, wiring harness, mechanical assemblies on this chassis I can tell you straight up the build quality of the Terminator is very good. The fact the stock block is good to about 600 rwhp and the T56 hold-up very well in 800 hp cars is a testament how robust the driveline is. I think your confusing the integrity of the chassis with the term quality. The SN95 is a wet noodle chassis compared to the S197. I agree it is not as refined as the GT500 but in a performance car that is not necessarily a bad thing.
For a fellow opinionated engineer, Full subframe connectors help, I know as it was one of my first mods. I understand the S197 has a double floor reinforcements in certain areas and does not need Subframe connectors. The Camaro, being derived from the Holden Chassis are tanks. (Yeech)
Paint body panel fit, some interior pieces, electrical switches, & switch gear sending units, things like the power window design, etc. reflect the common pony car which the Mustang Cobra is derived. Not horrible, and the current GT 500 is better still but not mid 1990's Honda quality IMHO.
I like the 13 interior, just not crazy about the retro steering wheel. (Or the so 1990's 03 Cobra wheel)
I loved lots of things about my old 03 Cobra, but there was one similar characteristic between the 03 and the 13 that made me finally update the old girl last year. In 2003 you got 425hp (it was not the underrated claim of 390hp) and with the most minor of boltons (pulley, CAI, exhaust, and tune) you got anywhere from 440-460hp at the wheels. That's it. You could do more if you wanted to, but at that level I found myself having a ball and the car had barely been changed from it's stock form. The closer you keep a car to stock, the longer it will live without frustrating headaches in my opinion. I don't want to rip the guts out of my cars and dump a ton of money into it. I like to enhance what we're given from the factory, and the 03 Cobra was amazing in that department.
Fastforward to now and I feel like the '13 gives me the exact same scenario. Now we get 662hp and with the same sort of simple boltons (pulley, CAI, TB, and a Tune) you get 700+ at the wheels. You still keep the car mostly stock, yet you have a ton of power that should be more than enough to enjoy yourself with. In my mind, it's the exact same setup as the 03 was, just updated. The 03 was a giant leap over the competition and the previous Cobra, just as the '13 is. To me, the two cars are of the same DNA. I don't see the 03 doing anything better than the '13, but that doesn't make me love my old 03 any less. It was raw, which made me love it that much more! I suppose I'll trade in my '13 in 2023 for whatever Ford comes up with next, since that seems to be my pattern, but it's going to have to have that same DNA if they want to grab my attention. Just like the two most enjoyable cars I've ever owned did.:beer:
Fastforward to now and I feel like the '13 gives me the exact same scenario. Now we get 662hp and with the same sort of simple boltons (pulley, CAI, TB, and a Tune) you get 700+ at the wheels. You still keep the car mostly stock, yet you have a ton of power that should be more than enough to enjoy yourself with. In my mind, it's the exact same setup as the 03 was, just updated. The 03 was a giant leap over the competition and the previous Cobra, just as the '13 is. To me, the two cars are of the same DNA. I don't see the 03 doing anything better than the '13, but that doesn't make me love my old 03 any less. It was raw, which made me love it that much more! I suppose I'll trade in my '13 in 2023 for whatever Ford comes up with next, since that seems to be my pattern, but it's going to have to have that same DNA if they want to grab my attention. Just like the two most enjoyable cars I've ever owned did.:beer:
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My brother has gone as fast as 9.27@152 @3500 with a '03 Cobra motor in his '86 GT.
Never had a valve cover off, completely stock long block pulled from a Cobra vert with an interior fire. Not exact on the mileage but probably 2000-4000 miles before he dropped it in 6-7 years ago!
Has been Eaton only then Eaton/NOS then self-built turbo kit with a Procharger hat over the lower intake cooler all on E85.
I cannot believe what this motor has taken, all he has done is change oil and plugs!
I'd say the Terminator motor can take some power, probably more than our 5.8 trinity due to the manley rods.
I'd love to have my '04 Cobra still in the garage next to my '14 GT500, no need to debate the 2 in my mind, both are amazing!
-J
Never had a valve cover off, completely stock long block pulled from a Cobra vert with an interior fire. Not exact on the mileage but probably 2000-4000 miles before he dropped it in 6-7 years ago!
Has been Eaton only then Eaton/NOS then self-built turbo kit with a Procharger hat over the lower intake cooler all on E85.
I cannot believe what this motor has taken, all he has done is change oil and plugs!
I'd say the Terminator motor can take some power, probably more than our 5.8 trinity due to the manley rods.
I'd love to have my '04 Cobra still in the garage next to my '14 GT500, no need to debate the 2 in my mind, both are amazing!
-J
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