What cooling upgrades...

[rwleonard]

...have you needed to get through an HPDE day (say 4 x 30 minute sessions) without noticeable power loss or other issues?

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Norton]

I haven't done 30min HPDE sessions, but I have done a bit of 1/2 mile and 1 mile drag racing. Cooling upgrades that helped me were a VMP Triple Pass-Dual Fan Heat Exchanger and Reische 170' Thermostat.

I suspect they'd be a good starting point for you.

 

[rwleonard]

I suppose that is a reasonable first step. I see that Shelby offers an upgraded radiator by C&R, the cohort to the HE which Van sells, and read somewhere (can't find it again) that they recommend starting with the radiator, as engine heat influences everything else under the hood. On the other hand, everybody carries upgraded HE's, while I don't see the radiator everywhere, giving the impression that's what people usually need, or maybe just want.

So maybe step one, radiator. Not enough? Heat exchanger. Need more yet? Intercooler. Or maybe it should be HE, radiator, IC.

Does this make sense?

 

[Ray Lucca]

Call Van and discuss. He will give you winning advice.

 

[rwleonard]

I guess it is both a blessing and a curse to have someone like Van available. On the one hand, you feel like you can call him and say "this is what I want to do, tell me what to buy," and be confident on getting solid advice. He recently talked me out of spending a few thousand dollars. On the other hand, the forum itself at times seems a bit superfluous. (that was on my "word of the day" toilet paper)

 

[Streetpwr281]

I suppose that is a reasonable first step. I see that Shelby offers an upgraded radiator by C&R, the cohort to the HE which Van sells, and read somewhere (can't find it again) that they recommend starting with the radiator, as engine heat influences everything else under the hood. On the other hand, everybody carries upgraded HE's, while I don't see the radiator everywhere, giving the impression that's what people usually need, or maybe just want.

So maybe step one, radiator. Not enough? Heat exchanger. Need more yet? Intercooler. Or maybe it should be HE, radiator, IC.

Does this make sense?

I’d love to hear from the experts on your question about cooling upgrade priorities. I’m considering a VMP Triple Pass Dual Fan equipped HE but you bring up a good point about the radiator. Anyone have actual experience w IAT’s before/after HE upgrade?


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[Norton]

Call Van and discuss. He will give you winning advice.

Good advice, as is contacting Justin at VMP.

I’d love to hear from the experts on your question about cooling upgrade priorities. I’m considering a VMP Triple Pass Dual Fan equipped HE but you bring up a good point about the radiator. Anyone have actual experience w IAT’s before/after HE upgrade?

I posted my experience here. To summarize my non-scientific, but real world, observations:
- The stock unit is very capable, as long as air is moving across it. You won't have many (any?) issues until you're stuck in traffic or crawling through the pits before/after a high-speed pass down the strip. This is when my (pre-H/E upgrade) IAT2 readings rose well above 125'. The new H/E and tstat greatly reduced this problem, allowing me to hot-lap several times, despite 90'+ ambient temps.
- Having observed my engine temps and IAT2s in multiple conditions over a period of years, I know everything (coolant temp, head temp, and IAT2) all run ~20' cooler post-upgrade.
- Engine temps now run between 165' and 175', and IAT2 don't top 120' even in slow moving traffic.
- I had almost no ability to hot-lap before the upgrade. Despite ambient temps in the 90s, I'm able to do so a multiple times following the upgrade.

 

[Ohio Snake]

I suppose that is a reasonable first step. I see that Shelby offers an upgraded radiator by C&R, the cohort to the HE which Van sells, and read somewhere (can't find it again) that they recommend starting with the radiator, as engine heat influences everything else under the hood. On the other hand, everybody carries upgraded HE's, while I don't see the radiator everywhere, giving the impression that's what people usually need, or maybe just want.

So maybe step one, radiator. Not enough? Heat exchanger. Need more yet? Intercooler. Or maybe it should be HE, radiator, IC.

Does this make sense?

I have the C&R radiator and twin fan C&R triple pass HE installed on my twelve. The upgraded HE is quite different from the factory in construction and size. I’ve been real pleased with the setup and have noticed a difference when ambient temps are hot, especially 90 and above.


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[Catmonkey]

This is someone theoretical from my viewpoint, and all of the cooling mods mentioned here are probably needed. But, I think flogging a supercharged GT500 for 30 minutes on a road course probably warrants conservative speeds for the supercharger. The harder you spin them with smaller uppers and bigger lowers, the more heat you will generate and the faster you will heat up the intercooler system. The extra power of running 17 psi of boost is probably wasted if your IAT2s start climbing and the PCM begins to pull timing. You might want to also talk to member Sqidd because he seems to have a lot of experience battling intercooler temperatures on a road course.

 

[rwleonard]

Agreeing with your post above, Catmonkey, I see no point to adding power until I can: 1 - get control over the power I have (GR40SS); 2 - maintain the power I have over the course of an HPDE day. I will probably do a CAI/TB/tune package at some point, if only to fix my speedo (3.73's) and hear the SC better, but I think I will stay away from spinning the blower harder.
Do the bigger IC's (KB Bigun) help in this regard?

Ohio snake - I see you have the Shelby tanks, too. Do they enhance cooling at all, (greater volume maybe?) or are they mostly cosmetic?

Thanks guys.

 

[Cman01]

My experience with cooling on this car is when stock ALA you keep the car moving heat soak isn't really an issue if you are doing lapping sessions on a road course. If you are drag racing then yes usually after 1 pass it is VERY hard to cool this engine down to the point where you will have consistent runs.

When stock I ran my car at Mosport 2 years in a row during the hottest days in the summer and never had a problem, the car would keep pulling up the back straight from 35-40mph all the way to 145+ before I had to slow down for the turn (most regular cars would be around 120-125mph before the turn).

2 years ago I went to ORX and changed out the stock t-stat to a Reische 170 stat, Lund tune (with revised fan settings) and trailered my car down to Daytona to run the Rolex course. I also had no problems there with cooling and I would think at Mosport with this setup I probably could get a bit more mph up the back straight with the engine running cooler. I have not ran my car in this setup at the dragstrip.

It won't matter anyways since I have a VMP HE going on and also a 3:90 gear to install then I will try it out at the strip to see how it does, the car will also have a few pounds removed by that time also.

For basics I would just do the stat, revised fan settings and go OR pipe (H or X), losing the converters also removes a lot of heat from the engine compartment helping your cooling system not work as hard, then get into the HE and stuff like that if you want better cooling.

Tony

 

[Catmonkey]

Do the bigger IC's (KB Bigun) help in this regard?

I think the bigger problem is the size of the tubes in the intake manifold that connect the intercooler to the manifold adapter for the coolant hoses. It's necked down to .55". Hose diameters in the stock system are .75" and most of the barbs and tubes in the remainder of the system are ~.63". The intercooler tube has got to restrict the flow of coolant to a large degree. Someone makes a larger tube and adapter, but you have to plumb it with AN fittings. I ended up opening the cooling tubes to .63" with a grinding tool and a master cylinder sized bore honing brush. I also opened up every hose barb in the system to .65". Just by area alone, that is a 30% increase. It would also seem to me at some point too large a coolant opening and the intercooler becomes the restriction.

The Bigun is a bigger benefit coming from the 07-12 intecooler and that benefit is really about airflow. I've not seen any evidence it provides better cooling. The 13-14 got an upgraded intercooler so the airflow benefit is not that great and to get optimal airflow, it does require some porting of the manifold opening at the intercooler. I think your money would be better spent on getting the coolant to flow faster because the real benefit of the Bigun is more about moving more air through the engine, not cooling down the air charge. Lingenfelter also markets a BW intercooler pump that is the mac daddy of pumps. It is not impacted by flow restrictions as much as the stock pump and many other pumps.

 

[flynz]

One thing some seem to leave out is ditching the under hood coolant res. and going to a trunk mounted unit that will hold ALOT more fluid for the heat exchanger to work with. I used PNR and have their 7 gal spare tire well tank and am just on stock exhanger with 170* T stat and can log consistent pulls any time of year on the dyno. For track application I would add a triple pass exchanger without fans and upgrade the radiator as well as T stat, as said above fans only help at stops and add unnecessary weight for track use. Just my .02 but if the coolant fittings are big or small it wont matter once the fluid running through them is boiling, dispersing the heat over 7 gal of fluid vs 1.5 gal makes a huge difference there with IAT's. I would also think it has to be beneficial adding the weight near the rear tires especially at a lower height for CG and traction benefits.

 

[Ohio Snake]

The tanks do add a bit more volume (depth). I would tend to say more cosmetic as I put them on after the cooling system upgrade and used upgraded Samco hoses as well.


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[Cman01]

Adding 2 fans up front isn't going to increase weight that much. I have a new stock HE sitting in the basement with my new VMP TPDFHE that I'm going to install and they both weigh the same on my bathroom scale.

Adding a large water tank in the back adds more weight to the car but I do get what you are saying as to where the weight is going (in the back down low for CG and better traction.

 

[Beercules]

I guess it is both a blessing and a curse to have someone like Van available. On the one hand, you feel like you can call him and say "this is what I want to do, tell me what to buy," and be confident on getting solid advice. He recently talked me out of spending a few thousand dollars. On the other hand, the forum itself at times seems a bit superfluous. (that was on my "word of the day" toilet paper)

He does that.

 

[Beercules]

I think the bigger problem is the size of the tubes in the intake manifold that connect the intercooler to the manifold adapter for the coolant hoses. It's necked down to .55". Hose diameters in the stock system are .75" and most of the barbs and tubes in the remainder of the system are ~.63". The intercooler tube has got to restrict the flow of coolant to a large degree. Someone makes a larger tube and adapter, but you have to plumb it with AN fittings. I ended up opening the cooling tubes to .63" with a grinding tool and a master cylinder sized bore honing brush. I also opened up every hose barb in the system to .65". Just by area alone, that is a 30% increase. It would also seem to me at some point too large a coolant opening and the intercooler becomes the restriction.

The Bigun is a bigger benefit coming from the 07-12 intecooler and that benefit is really about airflow. I've not seen any evidence it provides better cooling. The 13-14 got an upgraded intercooler so the airflow benefit is not that great and to get optimal airflow, it does require some porting of the manifold opening at the intercooler. I think your money would be better spent on getting the coolant to flow faster because the real benefit of the Bigun is more about moving more air through the engine, not cooling down the air charge. Lingenfelter also markets a BW intercooler pump that is the mac daddy of pumps. It is not impacted by flow restrictions as much as the stock pump and many other pumps.

Take a look at the intercooler here.
http://www.departmentofboost.com/products/GT500_mustang/gt500_cooling_intercoolers.htm

Not sure about air flow, but it will flow more water (I'm assuming it allows enough detention time to absorb heat).

There's also
http://j2fabrication.com/product/gt500-flow-mod/

 

[rwleonard]

Yeah, I looked at the whole DOB set up. Looks pretty comprehensive and pricey. That was part of what prompted me to ask the membership here just what they found they needed to get through an event without loosing noticeable power or having to back off a few laps during a session. I had not seen the J2Fab info, thanks. How did people find any of this stuff before the internent?

 

[kwarnerjr]

Seems the cooling system was addressed for the 13-14 by Ford...brakes on the other hand need some help for HPDE days. Are you mostly stock under the hood? I’ve heard first hand that some of the bigger blower applications can get heat soaked but haven’t heard anything for the stock blower.

Have you done any sessions and experienced heat related issues?

I’ve always wanted to do HPDE but never seem to commit. I am also curious if there are any heat issues with the mild bolt on stock blower application cars. I’ve come close to getting either the aluminum coolant expansion tanks or the oversized roush tank but have held off because at the strip and around town I have no heat issues.


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[rwleonard]

I just got the car last spring, and managed to get two sessions in last year. One was in the middle of summer and the car was noticeably friskier at the beginning of each session compared to the end. I have made suspension and brake upgrades (no fading as yet). I am in no rush to add power.

You should really do one. I was concerned about the whole thing being more of an admin PITA than it was worth, what with tech check-ins and all, but it was not at all. They are a hoot!