Under hood temps and dynoing with the hood up explained

[Spd2Stang]

This seems like a never ending argument. I have 2 personal reasons of why I would not buy an aftermarket intake; 1 if the intake requires a lot of tuning effort, why bother for such a small gain? and 2 I believe they are way overpriced for what you're getting. I'm not taking shots at any specific brand, more like at every aftermarket intake. I can see bigger gains if the engine is an all out n/a build or FI, so I'm not totally against it. Just not worth it in my book if you have minimal mods.

It is, but unless your the tuner why would tuning effort be an issue to a consumer? Everyone wants more power if they can have it, your questioning at what cost. Well re-tunes from shaun @ AED are free and $250-$300 isnt a whole hell of a lot of money when you compare it to other modifications out there.

If your going N/A or F/I of course you will see bigger gains but your also spending about 16 times more money than a simple $300 intake.

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

Look at that! It's the guy who blasts off at the mouth who has nothing to give on said topic!

1. You don't own one of these cars.
2. You don't have ANY experience with them.
3. You don't have ANY data/results of your own.
4. This all adds to to 0 experience on said subject from you. Nothing to offer.

Good job. :kaboom:

look, it's that guy who makes many claims about me, yet can't them up with facts(alright, i said i didn't own a mustang, not that it's not relevant)! would help if you knew a bit of my work history maybe...

oh yea, i almost forgot...
ad hominem - An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

gotta hand it to you, your damn good with those logical fallacies!

 

[AluminatorSnake]

Look at that! It's the guy who blasts off at the mouth who has nothing to give on said topic!

1. You don't own one of these cars.
2. You don't have ANY experience with them.
3. You don't have ANY data/results of your own.
4. This all adds to to 0 experience on said subject from you. Nothing to offer.

Good job. :kaboom:

Why is this your only argument... im sure im going to speak for more than myself, people are tired of hearing your poor excuses. This is all that you retort with and you havent swayed anyones opinion. Just because someone doesnt own one of these cars doesnt mean they arent correct. Research-based scientific studies happen and take place and can be extremely accurate without ever having to do any hands on testing.

I also dont know why you bring up the point that MikeLTDLX tests were on different days and conditions when he has given records of what the weather was. The SAE has spent tons of time and money researching and making a correction factor to even the playing field. As long as you have the needed information for the SAE correction, you can take 2 runs at separate times and correct them just like the race would take place on the same day. You going to argue with the SAE International group too?



Tucker, thanks for the solid information about dyno testing with the hood open and closed:rockon:

 

[MikeLTDLX]

I also dont know why you bring up the point that MikeLTDLX tests were on different days and conditions when he has given records of what the weather was. The SAE has spent tons of time and money researching and making a correction factor to even the playing field. As long as you have the needed information for the SAE correction, you can take 2 runs at separate times and correct them just like the race would take place on the same day. You going to argue with the SAE International group too?

Corrected, my most recent best was 11.64 @ 119. The 11.96 was done in good air, so it really did not correct. I would be thrilled if I had actually run the corrected number! :beer:

Mike

 

[D.T.R]

Open stock air box vs Sealed stock air box.
Open = Blue
Sealed = Red

I had seen a few people wounder what it would do, so here it is.

Few Side notes,
Both Runs where with in 2* Engine Temps
Loads and Spark where Identical
- @4800rpm where the graphs differ, the closed box had .01 more load and 1* more spark but as you can see, still made less power.

This is with a AFE Drop in filter.

This is on a Stock Auto car.


Chris

That's pretty interesting.

 

[wbt]

Why is this your only argument... im sure im going to speak for more than myself, people are tired of hearing your poor excuses. This is all that you retort with and you havent swayed anyones opinion. Just because someone doesnt own one of these cars doesnt mean they arent correct. Research-based scientific studies happen and take place and can be extremely accurate without ever having to do any hands on testing.

I also dont know why you bring up the point that MikeLTDLX tests were on different days and conditions when he has given records of what the weather was. The SAE has spent tons of time and money researching and making a correction factor to even the playing field. As long as you have the needed information for the SAE correction, you can take 2 runs at separate times and correct them just like the race would take place on the same day. You going to argue with the SAE International group too?



Tucker, thanks for the solid information about dyno testing with the hood open and closed:rockon:

I can see why you don't like it because you fall into the same boat.

The whole reason these discussion have debate is because real world testing wasn't done and claims were made. What we did is put those claims to the test in real world use cases and came away with the results showing the claims were false. That is something the naysayers such as yourself have no data to back your criticism up with hence the response. When you have data to back your opinion up with, that makes for constructive conversation on said topic.

We are doers vs. keyboard ticklers. In fact I will be out doing some more tonight.

Second, if you believe showing IAT's driving around at 70 MPH translates to sitting on a dyno with the hood open, you are just as nuts as people trying to buy ocean front property in Arizona.

 

[ViperBlueCobra]

OMG!

Simple facts of what Tucker is stating is all that needs to be analyized, if at all. Some forget he too is a mustang enthusiast and wants the best product out there as well.

Size of intake inlet points and air filter surface area, combined with air speeds, proves that cold air intakes(most) are better than the box stock intake. I have not seen anything that has proved otherwise.

Hood up on a dyno run or testing, as Jay has explained, makes sense to me.

The arguement that the stock box benefits more in the "real" world is retarded. Simply because of the hole locations in relative to areas where air comes into the engine compartment. Claims that ford designed it this way for ram air effect is all bs. I've never seen any literature anywere from ford stating this.

9 times out of 10, the factory intakes for the mustang has been designed with conservation and EPA regulations in mind, not performance.

 

[JerryC]

OMG!

Simple facts of what Tucker is stating is all that needs to be analyized, if at all. Some forget he too is a mustang enthusiast and wants the best product out there as well.

Size of intake inlet points and air filter surface area, combined with air speeds, proves that cold air intakes(most) are better than the box stock intake. I have not seen anything that has proved otherwise.

At face value, true. In track testing others point out that 15hp on the dyno doesn't translate to 15hp at the track.

I would like to know what the CFM flows are with both when using the entire apparatus. It may be that JLT tested their CAI flow numbers with a closed box as if the hood was down and drawing air only through Ford inlet, I would like to know for sure one way or the other.

Hood up on a dyno run or testing, as Jay has explained, makes sense to me.

Me too, if you only compare dyno results. Other factors weight into teh equation of making the car faster and by how much.

The arguement that the stock box benefits more in the "real" world is retarded. Simply because of the hole locations in relative to areas where air comes into the engine compartment. Claims that ford designed it this way for ram air effect is all bs. I've never seen any literature anywere from ford stating this.

That's not the argument, not universally. More appropriate is that the airbox could be hindered by the car sitting still. Also that a CAI no longer has the hood restricting flow to the filter. Some testing in this thread seems minimize both arguments.

9 times out of 10, the factory intakes for the mustang has been designed with conservation and EPA regulations in mind, not performance.

If you go by track results, it seems that Ford did pretty good this time.

 

[AluminatorSnake]

I can see why you don't like it because you fall into the same boat.

The whole reason these discussion have debate is because real world testing wasn't done and claims were made. What we did is put those claims to the test in real world use cases and came away with the results showing the claims were false. That is something the naysayers such as yourself have no data to back your criticism up with hence the response. When you have data to back your opinion up with, that makes for constructive conversation on said topic.

We are doers vs. keyboard ticklers. In fact I will be out doing some more tonight.

Second, if you believe showing IAT's driving around at 70 MPH translates to sitting on a dyno with the hood open, you are just as nuts as people trying to buy ocean front property in Arizona.

If you recall correctly, I used your data to correct for atmosphere. Although originally I subtracted the mph instead of adding, your car proved to be faster with the jot by .069 seconds and .69 mph. So I used your information and testing to prove your car is faster with the jlt and a few people found that valuable.

 

[wbt]

If you recall correctly, I used your data to correct for atmosphere. Although originally I subtracted the mph instead of adding, your car proved to be faster with the jot by .069 seconds and .69 mph. So I used your information and testing to prove your car is faster with the jlt and a few people found that valuable.

That doesn't fall in-line with the 15HP claim now does it? What is does do is fall within the margin of error.

 

[AluminatorSnake]

That doesn't fall in-line with the 15HP claim now does it? What is does do is fall within the margin of error.

So what's the errors you speak of from nearly identicle 60' timesin an auto car? Are you going back to wind that you so diligently forgot to mention when you were trying to prove against CAIs? No one ever blazes a trail of new personal best times with an intake on a n/a car, but it gives your car the ability to run faster... with ability being the key word. Jlt sales, or any other company, aren't dropping from your mission to disprove Tucker. The majority of test point and lean towards the direction of CAIs making faster cars. But continue to test your grudge.

 

[JerryC]

So what's the errors you speak of from nearly identicle 60' timesin an auto car? Are you going back to wind that you so diligently forgot to mention when you were trying to prove against CAIs? No one ever blazes a trail of new personal best times with an intake on a n/a car, but it gives your car the ability to run faster... with ability being the key word. Jlt sales, or any other company, aren't dropping from your mission to disprove Tucker. The majority of test point and lean towards the direction of CAIs making faster cars. But continue to test your grudge.

Lots of stuff can minimally change between passes.
One thing people often overlook is driving in a straight line. They think it's as simple going straight down the track, and yet if you sit and watch the races you'll see people doing everything from wandering one way or the other to weaving back and forth.
Changes in engine temperature, and within that oil temp, fluid temp of the trans and differntial.
Air Temp changes more than just DA, if it gets hotter the track gets stickier and that causes friction, air in the tires expands slightly, colder and you get the reveres. That same with sunshine...

It's a double edged sword, these things can hide gains and give an illusion of gains. That is why you would want to see an average of several runs to compare.

 

[AluminatorSnake]

Lots of stuff can minimally change between passes.
One thing people often overlook is driving in a straight line. They think it's as simple going straight down the track, and yet if you sit and watch the races you'll see people doing everything from wandering one way or the other to weaving back and forth.
Changes in engine temperature, and within that oil temp, fluid temp of the trans and differntial.
Air Temp changes more than just DA, if it gets hotter the track gets stickier and that causes friction, air in the tires expands slightly, colder and you get the reveres. That same with sunshine...

It's a double edged sword, these things can hide gains and give an illusion of gains. That is why you would want to see an average of several runs to compare.

I do understand that... the only reason that I stated it that way was that wbt claimed that he conducted his tests precisely blah blah blah. Then I pointed out that with his corrected numbers the jlt run was faster and people took note of that and a few pages later in a previous thread there magically was a head wind of 15mph that he was battling all day, even though his scientific method of testing was so much better by how he stressed, he still forgot to mention that magical variable.

This test will never prove 100% due to those variables, but it does lean towards working.

I have suggested before and I will do it again. Make the 1/4 mile run on a dyno in a facility such as arrington that has the ability to match driving conditions such as wind at 120mph. That would be a run in a controlled environment, a perfectly straight line, temperatures could be monitered to be the same during testing, the hood could be closed due to the force of the wind tunnel, no crosswind, no slick spots on the track, etc. Its the only way to perfectly test this product.

 

[D.T.R]

I do understand that... the only reason that I stated it that way was that wbt claimed that he conducted his tests precisely blah blah blah. Then I pointed out that with his corrected numbers the jlt run was faster and people took note of that and a few pages later in a previous thread there magically was a head wind of 15mph that he was battling all day, even though his scientific method of testing was so much better by how he stressed, he still forgot to mention that magical variable.

This test will never prove 100% due to those variables, but it does lean towards working.

I have suggested before and I will do it again. Make the 1/4 mile run on a dyno in a facility such as arrington that has the ability to match driving conditions such as wind at 120mph. That would be a run in a controlled environment, a perfectly straight line, temperatures could be monitered to be the same during testing, the hood could be closed due to the force of the wind tunnel, no crosswind, no slick spots on the track, etc. Its the only way to perfectly test this product.

I thought companies do all that when they release a product and claim gains :??:

 

[JerryC]

I think that the intake makes more power, but not as much as it does on the dyno.

That's ok, that's why we have tracks to race on.

I appreciate all of the testing being done by all involved. In the end it gives the consumers more information to apply to the purchase of parts for their car.

My curiousity is what happens to 15 or so HP seen on the dyno when it is run at the track. How do we get that 15HP at the track? Is it by removing the CAI enclosure so that filter has more air draw in? There's plenty of fast cars drawing underhood air. How about increasing the factory inlet CAI inlet size? Etc...

 

[Tucker]

We've proved 15 RWHP several times on different cars.
We show the runs and even video tape them. That's what we do and is more than most.

We don't make 1/4 mile claims due to the amount of variables, but the facts have been proven there as well.

 

[AluminatorSnake]

I thought companies do all that when they release a product and claim gains :??:

Show me a company that runs a 1/4 mile simulation on a dyno in a 100% controlled environment on every product... no one it the history of ever. They are 3rd party tests that show things like that because not all companies have that luxury to be that close to such a sophisticated facility.

Im not talking about strapping to a dyno and just getting a power number. Im talking about running the 1/4 while strapped to a dyno in a shop that can match the car speed with wind speed.

JLT hasnt claimed anything they cant prove, they claim ~15hp on the dyno and they have proved that and more with the hood open and shut.

 

[wbt]

look, it's that guy who makes many claims about me, yet can't them up with facts(alright, i said i didn't own a mustang, not that it's not relevant)! would help if you knew a bit of my work history maybe...

oh yea, i almost forgot...
ad hominem - An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

gotta hand it to you, your damn good with those logical fallacies!

I think you should hand it to me. I did find some history about you:

OkCupid | Ry_Trapp0 / 23 / M / Hebron, Ohio

I’m really good at
"Bullshitting, debating, arguing. I am the MASTER at those! Living too, I guess I'm doing pretty good with that one..."

https://www.facebook.com/rytrapp0

Your photo album is quite impressive too. Matches your knowledge of Mustangs to a tee.

Well done buddy.

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

I think you should hand it to me. I did find some history about you:

OkCupid | Ry_Trapp0 / 23 / M / Hebron, Ohio

I’m really good at
"Bullshitting, debating, arguing. I am the MASTER at those! Living too, I guess I'm doing pretty good with that one..."

https://www.facebook.com/rytrapp0

Your photo album is quite impressive too. Matches your knowledge of Mustangs to a tee.

Well done buddy.

i can give you more if you want, all you had to do is ask. you must've missed this thread...
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...49/810533-video-my-first-time-suspending.html

then there's this one from '08 too...

...you can't see it since i put it in the premium section, but here's one of the many pics i posted in there...
attention whore thread: check out mah newest gory injuries!

2011 24hrs of daytona as well...

no really, want anything else? more than happy to post up more. my xanga profile should come up on google too, if your interested in what i was bullshitting about back in highschool. i have nothing to hide. unlike some people...


damn it, i forgot it again...
ad hominem - An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

 

[Laloosh]

Cool you got google searched too. I personally found it funny.