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2011-2014 Mustangs
2011-2014 Mustang Talk
Twins vs single?
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<blockquote data-quote="RUQWKNF" data-source="post: 13414454" data-attributes="member: 149115"><p>Just to set the record straight, turbo Promod cars run twins because they are trying to make over 4000 hp in order to be competitive in the class. No single turbo has ever come close to supporting that hp level, as the T5/T6 frame size / component level limitations, are far surpassed for that power level. I should know as I worked for PTE when twin turbos were first introduced in NHRA Promod racing. Not meaning to pick on you D.T.R., just stating facts. </p><p></p><p>Some very good points have been made. Here are a few that I can think of off the top of my head.</p><p></p><p><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> <strong><u>Pro’s for single turbo:</u></strong></p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Less plumbing required with both piping and oil feed/return lines.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When properly spec’d, a single can spool up just as fast as twins.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Less chance of boost leaks in the piping.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Auxiliary component requirements and pricing are typically less.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Capability for cooler charge temps with an air to air intercooler, where a single can utilize the entire core, vs twins utilizing a split core.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Less underhood heat associated with a single.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It’s also easier to manage the heat generated in a certain area, vs having to relocate and or blanket electrical or fluid containing components.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Typically lower costs associated with repair and or refreshing the turbo when it comes time. (IE: age and or amount of mileage and or track passes the turbo has on it)</li> </ul><p><strong><u>Con's for single turbo:</u></strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You are ultimately limited to the amount of hp potential with a single T4 frame size turbo. Typically around 1300 fwhp is it with a standard T4 frame size turbo. Anymore would require completely reconfiguring the kit to accommodate a T5/T6 large frame turbo. Underhood room, plays a huge factor at those hp levels. We already have very little space to work with as it is.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Back pressure can become an issue when trying to make as much hp as a single unit can make. Just because a single is rated to support 1300 fwhp, you might not be able to make it because of back pressure issues.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Typically, blow off valve and wastegate requirements are higher/larger than what is required on a low boost twin setup.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A single is more susceptible to turbine wheel damage if something comes out of the engine due to failure. IE: Broken ring lands, broken piston rings, welding slag from the pre-turbo exhaust, spark plug tips. Anything that could come out of the engines exhaust that is not supposed to. You have a 50/50 chance of damage with twins in that scenario.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If not properly sized or spec'd, you could have significant lag associated with a large single.</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong><u>Pro's for twin turbos:</u></strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Packaging and placement requirements are less, vs a medium/large frame single turbo.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can get away with using smaller turbos for a given hp goal.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boost levels are typically lower.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spoolup characteristics or "Transient response" is typically faster with two smaller units. However this can be offset slightly by using a single turbo with a dual ball bearing CHRA. (Which I <strong>HIGHLY RECOMMEND</strong> on any turbo setup)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Twins work very well on a high intake/exhaust flow engine such as the Coyote. Especially with the v-band / v-band style turbine housings as used on Hellions kit. Whenever you can keep the exhaust flow to the turbine wheel on a round path, efficiency is high.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ultimately more hp potential is available with twins, as you can simply crank up the boost and not run into back pressure issues.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Transient response between shifts is a lot faster for a given boost level. (only on manual trans equipped applications, automatic guys don't have to worry about this, as boost is maintained between shifts :rockon<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> IE: boost recovers quicker after the shift. Mainly due to the smaller rotating assemblies used on the smaller twins.</li> </ul><p><strong><u>Con's for twin turbos:</u></strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Plumbing and piping requirements are more. More clamps, more hoses, more pipes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More potential for boost leaks and harder to diagnose boost leaks when they occur.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finicky oil feed and return line setup, vs a much simpler single feed and single return on a single turbo setup.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Higher costs associated with repair and or refresh if something happens to the engine or turbos.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Higher underhood heat temps. Two turbine housings and two wastegates generate a lot of underhood heat. Typically requiring heat blankets and or relocating of electrical components or fluid containers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More front end weight added to the car with twins vs a single.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Limitations with turbine housing selection for more flow, once you reach back pressure limits of the turbos used. IE: reconfiguring of the hot side piping would be required, if you were trying to make more power than the turbos can support.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The potential for more cooling system requirements, due to increased underhood temps and engine oil temps generated with twins.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Higher costs associate with more components in the kit.</li> </ul><p>These are just some of the points that come to mind between the two setups. I helped customers spec turbos for both single and twin applications on a daily basis, with thousands of different engine combinations. Both of the front running kits on the market today (JPC & Hellion) have been thoroughly tested and are high quality designs. I am a fan of both of their kits. I am not knocking the On3 setup in the least, (or anyone else's kit for that matter) as it too has it's place (price point) in the market. On that note, I will just say that I know the components used in both JPC and Hellions kits and I know of their quality and reliability. I worked with both companies on a daily basis while at PTE and can vouch for both of them with high respect. Both are excellent companies to work with and I would not hesitate to recommend either one of them. Great bunch of guys. I go with what I know when selecting my personal go fast parts. I myself prefer the simpler route, so JPC is the way I would go.</p><p></p><p>In summary, it really comes down to what your ultimate goals and preferences are for your car. Some people prefer the Shock and Awe factor of twins when the hood is popped at the local cruise in. Others prefer the simpler setup with a single turbo. When it comes to HP potential, both have their merits. Make 700 rwhp and never go higher? A properly spec'd single turbo will do that all day long without breaking a sweat. Make 1300 rwhp on kill without maxing out the turbos? Twins are your best bet. In the end, you won't regret going with a turbo setup, as it is the most efficient way to make power, although not the easiest to install nor the cheapest. And lastly, in my personal opinion, it is the most addictive power adder. There's nothing quiet like the rush of that full boost pull that never let's up when making a 1/4 mile pass. Combine that with the sound of a 747 airliner spooling up for take off. It's more addictive than the smell of fresh cooked bacon eggs and toast in the morning. </p><p>:rockon:</p><p></p><p>Hope some of this helps.</p><p></p><p>Patrick</p><p></p><p><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" />oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> 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[QUOTE="RUQWKNF, post: 13414454, member: 149115"] Just to set the record straight, turbo Promod cars run twins because they are trying to make over 4000 hp in order to be competitive in the class. No single turbo has ever come close to supporting that hp level, as the T5/T6 frame size / component level limitations, are far surpassed for that power level. I should know as I worked for PTE when twin turbos were first introduced in NHRA Promod racing. Not meaning to pick on you D.T.R., just stating facts. Some very good points have been made. Here are a few that I can think of off the top of my head. <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> [B][U]Pro’s for single turbo:[/U][/B] [LIST] [*]Less plumbing required with both piping and oil feed/return lines. [*]When properly spec’d, a single can spool up just as fast as twins. [*]Less chance of boost leaks in the piping. [*]Auxiliary component requirements and pricing are typically less. [*]Capability for cooler charge temps with an air to air intercooler, where a single can utilize the entire core, vs twins utilizing a split core. [*]Less underhood heat associated with a single. [*]It’s also easier to manage the heat generated in a certain area, vs having to relocate and or blanket electrical or fluid containing components. [*]Typically lower costs associated with repair and or refreshing the turbo when it comes time. (IE: age and or amount of mileage and or track passes the turbo has on it) [/LIST] [B][U]Con's for single turbo:[/U][/B] [LIST] [*]You are ultimately limited to the amount of hp potential with a single T4 frame size turbo. Typically around 1300 fwhp is it with a standard T4 frame size turbo. Anymore would require completely reconfiguring the kit to accommodate a T5/T6 large frame turbo. Underhood room, plays a huge factor at those hp levels. We already have very little space to work with as it is. [*]Back pressure can become an issue when trying to make as much hp as a single unit can make. Just because a single is rated to support 1300 fwhp, you might not be able to make it because of back pressure issues. [*]Typically, blow off valve and wastegate requirements are higher/larger than what is required on a low boost twin setup. [*]A single is more susceptible to turbine wheel damage if something comes out of the engine due to failure. IE: Broken ring lands, broken piston rings, welding slag from the pre-turbo exhaust, spark plug tips. Anything that could come out of the engines exhaust that is not supposed to. You have a 50/50 chance of damage with twins in that scenario. [*]If not properly sized or spec'd, you could have significant lag associated with a large single. [/LIST] [B][U]Pro's for twin turbos:[/U][/B] [LIST] [*]Packaging and placement requirements are less, vs a medium/large frame single turbo. [*]You can get away with using smaller turbos for a given hp goal. [*]Boost levels are typically lower. [*]Spoolup characteristics or "Transient response" is typically faster with two smaller units. However this can be offset slightly by using a single turbo with a dual ball bearing CHRA. (Which I [B]HIGHLY RECOMMEND[/B] on any turbo setup) [*]Twins work very well on a high intake/exhaust flow engine such as the Coyote. Especially with the v-band / v-band style turbine housings as used on Hellions kit. Whenever you can keep the exhaust flow to the turbine wheel on a round path, efficiency is high. [*]Ultimately more hp potential is available with twins, as you can simply crank up the boost and not run into back pressure issues. [*]Transient response between shifts is a lot faster for a given boost level. (only on manual trans equipped applications, automatic guys don't have to worry about this, as boost is maintained between shifts :rockon:) IE: boost recovers quicker after the shift. Mainly due to the smaller rotating assemblies used on the smaller twins. [/LIST] [B][U]Con's for twin turbos:[/U][/B] [LIST] [*]Plumbing and piping requirements are more. More clamps, more hoses, more pipes. [*]More potential for boost leaks and harder to diagnose boost leaks when they occur. [*]Finicky oil feed and return line setup, vs a much simpler single feed and single return on a single turbo setup. [*]Higher costs associated with repair and or refresh if something happens to the engine or turbos. [*]Higher underhood heat temps. Two turbine housings and two wastegates generate a lot of underhood heat. Typically requiring heat blankets and or relocating of electrical components or fluid containers. [*]More front end weight added to the car with twins vs a single. [*]Limitations with turbine housing selection for more flow, once you reach back pressure limits of the turbos used. IE: reconfiguring of the hot side piping would be required, if you were trying to make more power than the turbos can support. [*]The potential for more cooling system requirements, due to increased underhood temps and engine oil temps generated with twins. [*]Higher costs associate with more components in the kit. [/LIST] These are just some of the points that come to mind between the two setups. I helped customers spec turbos for both single and twin applications on a daily basis, with thousands of different engine combinations. Both of the front running kits on the market today (JPC & Hellion) have been thoroughly tested and are high quality designs. I am a fan of both of their kits. I am not knocking the On3 setup in the least, (or anyone else's kit for that matter) as it too has it's place (price point) in the market. On that note, I will just say that I know the components used in both JPC and Hellions kits and I know of their quality and reliability. I worked with both companies on a daily basis while at PTE and can vouch for both of them with high respect. Both are excellent companies to work with and I would not hesitate to recommend either one of them. Great bunch of guys. I go with what I know when selecting my personal go fast parts. I myself prefer the simpler route, so JPC is the way I would go. In summary, it really comes down to what your ultimate goals and preferences are for your car. Some people prefer the Shock and Awe factor of twins when the hood is popped at the local cruise in. Others prefer the simpler setup with a single turbo. When it comes to HP potential, both have their merits. Make 700 rwhp and never go higher? A properly spec'd single turbo will do that all day long without breaking a sweat. Make 1300 rwhp on kill without maxing out the turbos? Twins are your best bet. In the end, you won't regret going with a turbo setup, as it is the most efficient way to make power, although not the easiest to install nor the cheapest. And lastly, in my personal opinion, it is the most addictive power adder. There's nothing quiet like the rush of that full boost pull that never let's up when making a 1/4 mile pass. Combine that with the sound of a 747 airliner spooling up for take off. It's more addictive than the smell of fresh cooked bacon eggs and toast in the morning. :rockon: Hope some of this helps. 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mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:107%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> [/QUOTE]
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