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SVTPerformance's Chain of Restaurants
The Distillery
The New Super E85 Fuel - Must Read!!
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<blockquote data-quote="JeremyH" data-source="post: 15603142" data-attributes="member: 160292"><p>Couple misconceptions here I think and I will share my thoughts this being a topic I heavily research. My first thoughts are don't hold your breath, this isn't going to be a magic race gas end all be all replacement that might become more readily available more so it could be a replacement or alternative for premium pump gas.</p><p>The consensus is it would be mixed with some petrol and ethanol still to make it similar to current premium gas stoich(93 which is 10% ethanol or e10) and the octane rating may be in the 96-98 range with isobutene blend at a local pump. 98 octane bp petrol has already been replaced by e70,e80,e90 in the racing world in real race cars.</p><p></p><p>This has been in the works since 2007 when the government put out the energy act for more bio fuels development. At least that's when I first learned about it, right about when e85 started getting peoples attention and becoming more available. I know its been used as a denatured hydrocarbon octane booster long before that. Its one of many hardware store additives racer use to home brew fuel. Butanol is commonly found paint/lacquer thinners. And any hydrocarbon can be added to boost octane and make a few more hp than the competition.</p><p></p><p>That said its not just the higher octane rating of high ethanol blends that makes for more power its the increased mass. Yes having a higher octane fuel can allow for even more power with more timing (which already can be done with any higher octane race fuel) and the cooling properties when injected for lower iat, but its the change in stoich and more volume that makes more power regardless of additional tuning changes. You need more air to go with this increased fuel volume to make more power and take advantage hence why na applications may only see 5-10hp where a boosted motor may see 50-70hp.</p><p></p><p>Ethanol and butanol are both hydrocarbons (both made of hydrogen carbon and oxygen) so both release oxygen and hydrogen during combustion for a better burn more cylinder pressure and more hp/tq. As do many other hydrocarbons.</p><p></p><p>The fact that ethanol has less energy per volume than petrol or butanol is actually its advantage in a boosted application. When your using e85 and supplying 33% more fuel to the motor (33% more yields same energy as petrol for stoich combustion) So yo have more mass of hydrocarbons to create oxygen and hydrogen during combustion. E98 race fuel requires closer to 40% more volume. This increased volume from less energy comparatively is the ticket and why simply changing fuel and adjusting stoich in the tune makes power gains on boosted cars averaging 50-70hp and then more power can be had with more timing and boost due to cooling and higher octane.</p><p></p><p>To do some rough math, so e85 is 85% hydrocarbon and isobutanol (for easy math lets say its 100% hydrocarbon fuel with no addtives) .</p><p></p><p>If isobutanol has 98% the energy of petrol we will say 2% more fuel is needed for stoich to make it easy. So we will use 1.0 times 2% which is a 1.02 hydrocarbon "rating". Then for e85 33% more fuel is needed for stoich. So .85 times 33% which is a 1.1305 hydrocarbon rating.</p><p></p><p>1.02 is about 81% of 1.1305. So e85 is getting 19% more hydrogen and oxygen into the motor during combustion. Isobutane appears to have a octane rating up to 100 octane, e85 up to 108 octane. Butanol has heat of vaporization rating of .43 mj/kg and ethanol has a rating of .92 mj/kg so ethanol removes twice the heat from the air charge and cylinder during combustion. Anyone seeing a trend here? So while it will def be an excellent biofuel replacement or even a great additive with ethanol. I don't see it anywhere near the performance level of higher ethanol blends for boosted street/strip cars or being a "super" fuel ethanol replacement for performance.</p><p></p><p>Last data point I have is the US produced around 15 billion gallons of ethanol last year with an average e85 price of $1.97 a gallon across the us. Isobutanol fuel production was an estimated 750 thousand gallons and I was unable to find a consumer or commercial cost for sales in the us last year.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JeremyH, post: 15603142, member: 160292"] Couple misconceptions here I think and I will share my thoughts this being a topic I heavily research. My first thoughts are don't hold your breath, this isn't going to be a magic race gas end all be all replacement that might become more readily available more so it could be a replacement or alternative for premium pump gas. The consensus is it would be mixed with some petrol and ethanol still to make it similar to current premium gas stoich(93 which is 10% ethanol or e10) and the octane rating may be in the 96-98 range with isobutene blend at a local pump. 98 octane bp petrol has already been replaced by e70,e80,e90 in the racing world in real race cars. This has been in the works since 2007 when the government put out the energy act for more bio fuels development. At least that's when I first learned about it, right about when e85 started getting peoples attention and becoming more available. I know its been used as a denatured hydrocarbon octane booster long before that. Its one of many hardware store additives racer use to home brew fuel. Butanol is commonly found paint/lacquer thinners. And any hydrocarbon can be added to boost octane and make a few more hp than the competition. That said its not just the higher octane rating of high ethanol blends that makes for more power its the increased mass. Yes having a higher octane fuel can allow for even more power with more timing (which already can be done with any higher octane race fuel) and the cooling properties when injected for lower iat, but its the change in stoich and more volume that makes more power regardless of additional tuning changes. You need more air to go with this increased fuel volume to make more power and take advantage hence why na applications may only see 5-10hp where a boosted motor may see 50-70hp. Ethanol and butanol are both hydrocarbons (both made of hydrogen carbon and oxygen) so both release oxygen and hydrogen during combustion for a better burn more cylinder pressure and more hp/tq. As do many other hydrocarbons. The fact that ethanol has less energy per volume than petrol or butanol is actually its advantage in a boosted application. When your using e85 and supplying 33% more fuel to the motor (33% more yields same energy as petrol for stoich combustion) So yo have more mass of hydrocarbons to create oxygen and hydrogen during combustion. E98 race fuel requires closer to 40% more volume. This increased volume from less energy comparatively is the ticket and why simply changing fuel and adjusting stoich in the tune makes power gains on boosted cars averaging 50-70hp and then more power can be had with more timing and boost due to cooling and higher octane. To do some rough math, so e85 is 85% hydrocarbon and isobutanol (for easy math lets say its 100% hydrocarbon fuel with no addtives) . If isobutanol has 98% the energy of petrol we will say 2% more fuel is needed for stoich to make it easy. So we will use 1.0 times 2% which is a 1.02 hydrocarbon "rating". Then for e85 33% more fuel is needed for stoich. So .85 times 33% which is a 1.1305 hydrocarbon rating. 1.02 is about 81% of 1.1305. So e85 is getting 19% more hydrogen and oxygen into the motor during combustion. Isobutane appears to have a octane rating up to 100 octane, e85 up to 108 octane. Butanol has heat of vaporization rating of .43 mj/kg and ethanol has a rating of .92 mj/kg so ethanol removes twice the heat from the air charge and cylinder during combustion. Anyone seeing a trend here? So while it will def be an excellent biofuel replacement or even a great additive with ethanol. I don't see it anywhere near the performance level of higher ethanol blends for boosted street/strip cars or being a "super" fuel ethanol replacement for performance. Last data point I have is the US produced around 15 billion gallons of ethanol last year with an average e85 price of $1.97 a gallon across the us. Isobutanol fuel production was an estimated 750 thousand gallons and I was unable to find a consumer or commercial cost for sales in the us last year. [/QUOTE]
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