Supercharged 5.2 discussion

[Lacquer]

What if I told you that it's ACTUALLY faster than a FGT on a lot of tracks?

I would believe it, especially for a lap or two. The GT wasn't intended to be an all out glory lap track monster, even though just because of its design, it can set blistering lap times. The GT could use a little more tire up front according to a few I know that track them. The GT also doesn't have the latest sticky compound like they are running on cars like the Porsche GT2 and ZR1 or it would be even faster than it is already. The new GT 500 benefits from massive sticky tires, and great downforce. I feel confident this will surprise several big guns on a road course.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Tires do matter, a 2005 GT on modern rubber comparable to then high performance street rubber is seconds faster than it was in 05. Same with a Ferrari f40.

Just some tires takes an f40 from like 1.01g skidpad to 1.11, I cant remember where but I think I remember a tire test with an f40 in like 2011 or 2012 and it was much faster. Might of been a countache, it was some late 80’s supercar.

 

[Tob]

A few interesting notes from a Motor Trend article of a few days ago.

Yes Virginia, there will be a crate engine offered. But not for a little while because work on that variant can't begin until final certification of the production version is completed later this year. The Ford Performance Parts catalogue could begin offering other parts, however, like the stronger bolts and block for drag racing use.

It makes sense that a crate motor would be offered given that FR or FRPP did the same for the past few GT500 iterations as well.

Air rushing into the gigantic central grille passes through the intercooler circuit's radiator first, then through the A/C condenser, then through the engine radiator. An auxiliary side-mounted engine coolant radiator gets first crack at the cool air on the passenger side, while a matching radiator on the driver side cools the engine oil. The twin-clutch transmission gets a small horizontally placed radiator grabbing air off the splitter below the main radiator stack.

Of note, GM has a horizontally mounted cooler in roughly the same location. No doubt, Ford engineers studied very carefully when looking closely at their competitor's car.

Why not use the 10-speed automatic? The transmissions weigh about the same, and both have minimal parasitic loss. Torque capacity is the differentiator. The GT supercar's twin-clutch transmission internals were already beefy enough, and reinforcing the 10-speed would have been costly and unnecessary. The seven-speed's first gear is about the same as the 10-speeds second, the top gear ratios are roughly equivalent, and this engine hardly needs any torque multiplication to launch stoutly.

More bits and pieces regarding the DCT. It'll be nice when we get a complete breakdown - forget the pdf's available for download on Tremec's site. The GT500's DCT will likely be of different specification.

To withstand the incredible torque routing aft, the GT500 gets a carbon-fiber driveshaft. (The GT350 doesn't get this.) The differential features a Torsen mechanical limited-slip unit, running a 3.73:1 ratio. The rear halfshafts are also considerably beefier, but the wheel rims do not have knurling...

Considering SVT Mustangs of recent past have had knurled wheels for better tire retention it is indeed interesting that this GT500 doesn't take advantage of this. Not 100% clear if both the base and the CF wheel won't have knurls.

2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500: 12 Tech Tidbits - Motor Trend

 

[biminiLX]

Funny Tob, we were looking over my buddies’ 1000hp R block Coyote. It’ll be swapped for a sleeved block and this strengthened 5.2 might be the foundation for high power builds.
We were in the garage as I was selling my 427” turbo pushrod motor. You mentioned crate motor, and the next bullet will be Coyote based, possibly even the longblock from the GT500 boosted from twin turbos!
Can’t wait to hear the next level tech in this car!
-J

 

[IcebourgGT500]

I believe this car should easily make strong HP, transmission the limiting factor. If it is running 12 PSI ( 14.7 PSI is a Bar ), the 5.2 should easily make over 750 HP. I know this car will be an awesome road-course car, but I hope it is able to make more than the "re-rumored" 720 horsepower and 650 lbs of Torque. I hate hearing of all the Dodge Red-Eye stuff and a "pullied" Camaro ZL1 horsepower crap. The demon is no longer in production so that fight can be put to rest.
All I heard at work the last few days is how much of the "Fail" the 2020 GT500 is because of the "over 700 horsepower" and the ADM's will put this car out of the hands of normal GT500 buyers. I get sick of it, call me biased.....

 

[Tob]

SID posted a host of close up photos in a front page article, here.
https://www.svtperformance.com/thre...g-pics-from-naias-2019.1170339/#post-16107320

Something I noticed during the intro right away and asked him if he could get some close ups of the engine and DCT on their respective stands.

The balancer. Some here may remember the balancer debacle from the 2007 GT500's. I'm getting old and starting to forget but I believe the Ford GT's suffered from this issue as well. Ford used an extremely heavy balancer (~26lbs or so) and found that when power got bumped ever higher, keyways got stripped and crank snouts could fail.

Catastrophically.


Ford changed to an elastomer balancer starting on the 2008 GT500's which were a bit lighter. And while I never confirmed it, I believe the potentially problematic balancers were viscous style, silicone filled with an inertia ring. It was highly recommended to swap to the newer style when upgrading superchargers. Justin from VMP posted this a decade or so ago...

Another view that illustrates the difference between the two balancers...

Ford Racing wouldn't warranty your TVS unless you replaced your 2007 GT500 damper with the lighter elastomer unit from 2008 and later cars. Note the highlighted text at the bottom of one of the instruction sheets...

Anyway, Coyote engines (including the GT350's Voodoo engine) have continued to use the elastomer style. So my eyes were wide open when I saw what looks to be a viscous damper on the 2020 GT500 engine...

Look closely at both the text and at (this kills me to say this) the lousy welds...

Failure of the damper "and engine compartment" means get the **** out of the inertial path if you damage this thing such that it goes out of balance or you ting it in a way that the inertia ring inside is no longer free to move.

A diagram to better illustrate the innards. Notice the concentric welds on the damper face done to seal up the assembly (along with some small plug welds)...

An example of a cutaway Fluidampr (their spelling not mine) below that operates on the principle laid out in the above diagram.

Ford needs to be pressed on this one hard. Not saying they haven't figured it out but rather why was it necessary to go with this style of damper.

 

[LostM]

I’m hoping for 755 or 772hp, but I’m anticipating 725-750hp.

Regardless, go look up manual e46 m3 and a dct m3, it’s surprising how much of a difference it makes. It’s like 103 vs 106mph trap speed stock. Modded it’s 5-6mph+. A guy posted how his experience was that it was easy to get 135mph with 6xxwhp and dct in e46’s, but cars with 7xxwhp struggled to break 130 with manuals

In 03 cobra world, auto swap cars break 130mph with 5xxwhp, but manual cars struggle to break 130mph with 6xxwhp.

You can get a hell of a hotshoe like Ranger or Evan Smith, and the fun of a manual is man-handling it to a time no one else is getting.

That said, winning is winning, and most drivers are crap.

Example, I’m a great shoe, but trying to show off the other day while scooping a coworker, I lined up at a light in my daily driver, and attempted to keep pace with an Wrx. I’m in a manual nearly stock front drive gm with an ecotec, 270whp and 80k miles. I blew the tires off (15°) and missed 2nd (I blame colder synchros). Wrx was definitely cvt or whatever because he smoked my old man valet crappy ass driving.

Its an E9x M3, not E46 ( they had SMG) but close enough

I have a feeling they are going to be a bit better performing on the dragstrip than they are letting on, based on some more reading I have been doing.
1- i read somewhere about the TUNABLE Launch Control. I mentioned that earlier, that dct is hard to get off the line in basic construct, but if you can play with it a bit, it will do just fine, dropping ET's significantly. The mph will always be there as the dct is an advantage once rolling.

2. I found some vids of a colleague of mine. this guy is super techy, and designed the vboxverify website/tool that we all use to verify the vbox reading when posting the times for 60-130 etc ( very big in the euro crowd, catching on in other platforms). So he has immense knowledge and skill. ALSO, he was able to post these vids years ago when we had the same debates over DCT advantages.

First, This videos shows exactly what i eluded to before, DCT Vs Manual. There is no audio, but he describes everything clearly. Both videos are from actual telemetry data pulled from the vbox logs, and put into video form



Next, I aw this one, and its about as close as we can get for a DCT vs auto comparison since its based 100% on shift times. I say that because we can all agree that auto is faster than manual, ut how much faster is DCT vs Auto. well, here he has the exact same car run the test several times, on the same day, wihtin minutes of eachother, on the same road, in the same direction. ONLY changing the aggressiveness aka shift times of the dct. From normal DD operation (D2), to most aggressive (D5)

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Boost is not directly related to horsepower, especially when comparing different engines and compressors, it's only a measurement of restriction between the compressor and cylinder head really.

For that reason you SHOULD be hoping it only runs 12 psi from the factory, as opposed to 15-18 or whatever, because that means this package flows incredibly well.

To brag, (I always do) this is why my 5.3 mod mill hits 800whp on 10psi with 62’s and a manual. I don’t have much torque at 2-3k rpm though. Honda’s could gap my ass until she spools. I’m running 3.73’s and 8k rpm.

When an engine breaths really easy uptop, it doesn’t have much low speed velocity so torque is laughable. I have something like 350wtq at 3k rpm iirc. Boost hits and at 4500 I have 700wtq on pump gas or 970wtq on race gas. I drive my car by shifting around 2750-3000 rpm and it’s fine. Light enough with 3.73’s and the 350wtq is still plenty but in a 13’s kind of way.

With a blower car, you can do something really fun which is build what I built, and run a decent size blower instead of the turbs. It will be down a couple hundred whp at 20+ psi but it will be more fun on the street on 5-10psi and lower rpm. Gt350r with a pd blower? That sounds fun as ****.

Come to think of it, this new gt500 is a gt350r with a blower, and a dct. I bet it will be fun as ****. All these crack addicts bashing the gt500 will be eating humble pie if they drive or ride in one. Ultimate hyper muscle.

 

[gimmie11s]

SID posted a host of close up photos in a front page article, here.
https://www.svtperformance.com/thre...g-pics-from-naias-2019.1170339/#post-16107320

Something I noticed during the intro right away and asked him if he could get some close ups of the engine and DCT on their respective stands.

The balancer. Some here may remember the balancer debacle from the 2007 GT500's. I'm getting old and starting to forget but I believe the Ford GT's suffered from this issue as well. Ford used an extremely heavy balancer (~26lbs or so) and found that when power got bumped ever higher, keyways got stripped and crank snouts could fail.

Catastrophically.


Ford changed to an elastomer balancer starting on the 2008 GT500's which were a bit lighter. And while I never confirmed it, I believe the potentially problematic balancers were viscous style, silicone filled with an inertia ring. It was highly recommended to swap to the newer style when upgrading superchargers. Justin from VMP posted this a decade or so ago...

View attachment 1545817

Another view that illustrates the difference between the two balancers...

View attachment 1545818


Ford Racing wouldn't warranty your TVS unless you replaced your 2007 GT500 damper with the lighter elastomer unit from 2008 and later cars. Note the highlighted text at the bottom of one of the instruction sheets...

View attachment 1545823


Anyway, Coyote engines (including the GT350's Voodoo engine) have continued to use the elastomer style. So my eyes were wide open when I saw what looks to be a viscous damper on the 2020 GT500 engine...


View attachment 1545819


Look closely at both the text and at (this kills me to say this) the lousy welds...

View attachment 1545820


Failure of the damper "and engine compartment" means get the **** out of the inertial path if you damage this thing such that it goes out of balance or you ting it in a way that the inertia ring inside is no longer free to move.

A diagram to better illustrate the innards. Notice the concentric welds on the damper face done to seal up the assembly (along with some small plug welds)...

View attachment 1545821


An example of a cutaway Fluidampr (their spelling not mine) below that operates on the principle laid out in the above diagram.

View attachment 1545822


Ford needs to be pressed on this one hard. Not saying they haven't figured it out but rather why was it necessary to go with this style of damper.

Super interesting.

Ive read that the 2018 Mustang GT (Gen 3 coyote) also uses a viscous damper. If true, this is a huge departure from Gen 1 and Gen 2.

Some have speculated that Ford did this to mitigate oil pump gear failures sometimes experienced on Gen 1 and Gen 2. Again.. I cannot confirm, but ive read this a few times.

Crankshaft Pulley - Ford (JR3Z-6312-A) | TascaParts.com

Exclusive! A Peek Inside The 2018 Mustang’s Gen 3 Coyote Engine

"Enabled by new crankshaft and rod bearings, as well as a viscous crank damper, this Coyote revs 500 rpm higher than the Gen 2 to 7,500 rpm. As such, it needs a rev-friendly intake. Engineers didn’t just grab something off the shelf; they engineered a new intake manifold with specific runner tuning designed to increase peak power speed. It uses Charge Motion Control Valves like the Gen 2 intake to promote better low-end horsepower without sacrificing that top-end speed."

.

 

[Tob]

Nice work!

 

[biminiLX]

Still hoping we hear about true upgrades to the rods and oil pump gears! Powdered forged doesn’t count and the previous OPGs don’t cut it. I can see on standard F150s, but all Mustangs, especially the GT500 and special editions need robust OPGs. Take it from a guy whose had a motor rebuilt by Ford due to OPGs (and was at the limit of the rods with just bolt ons).
Great work looking at the damper, I also noticed how serious it looks. I’m going to hope the Ford engineers wouldn’t have made the same mistake twice. The poor design of the ‘07 was reconciled, and even though they look similar, I’m hoping it’s made up to the task of a high rev, boosted 5.2
We shall see......
-J

 

[Tob]

Even more interesting, F150's are using an elastomer design (just as the GT350, etc uses)...

But Mustangs are using the viscous type...

Looks like the current mindset is that viscous is the better choice for this engine.

 

[gimmie11s]

Even more interesting, F150's are using an elastomer design (just as the GT350, etc uses)...

View attachment 1545978


But Mustangs are using the viscous type...
View attachment 1545979

Looks like the current mindset is that viscous is the better choice for this engine.

Exactly. I was going to post that about the f150.

Funny thing is most, if not all of the OPG failures I know of on 18+ coyotes are on f150’s.

I have not seen a 18+ OPG failure yet on a mustang.

Here is a notable one...poor bastard had no idea what happened and let the motor keep running with 0 oil psi.



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[Tob]

Seems like a nice guy. I wish him the best.

 

[boduke0220]

I Read somewhere about a Ford engineer being asked about a smaller pulley on the car and he said it wasn't a good idea? I cannot remember where I saw it, but that struck me as odd.

I have also read ( Via 1320 junkie on FB) that fueling will be a weak point. I know the GT350 came with basically the same pump assembly as the 13/14 GT500. Why would this car not get these same setup?

I am also guessing, since the IC is on top, that whipple will have their Gen 5, 3 liter blower ready to go on soon after release.

 

[Ray Lucca]

Car and Driver spoke with the Chief Engineer and he said do not put a smaller pulley on the New GT 500. He said it would interfere with the "Holistic Tuning", HMM. CD interpreted it to mean grenade the motor, based on the Compression ratio?? Interesting, need to see some road tests...

 

[MG0h3]

I suspect hes suggesting the car wont perform better on a track with more power.

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[Voltwings]

Agreed. 755 is already way too much power, and very quickly you'll get to the point of diminishing returns when trying to decrease lap times by increasing power.

 

[conceptmachine]

How about putting the extra power into the base car then

 

[gimmie11s]

Agreed. 755 is already way too much power.....

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