Something to consider when the oil change topic happens here

Grant808

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I can't stop reading this subject. Very interesting but pretty difficult to understand.
Agreed. I guess it depends on how much math/chem/engineering you've been exposed to.

So quick math:
According to UB excel sheet, Motorcraft 5w-50 shears about 30% (average)
Then if MC 5w-50 has a HTHS @ 3.7 (still didn't find the number)
3.7 - 15% = 3.145

That's the same I found when looking into where UB was getting his 'estimated' HTHS numbers. The problem is taking an average, then applying 'about half' of a percentage from an unknown baseline, then using a number that might be a minimum spec value and doesn't even have the same dimensional units.

Grant, it seems UB number were correct. IF the guy from BITOG is correct which I believe is.

By the way do you know Ford HTHS recommendation for the coyote/roadrunner engine?

I don't know how low you can go to keep the engine safe in a road race. A
And too high is not a good option either.

Believing it to be correct is one thing. Knowing if it's accurate is another. The problems are in the assumptions and error ranges. Testing actual samples would be the only way to know.

I haven't found a recommended HT/HS spec. The only official recommendations I know of are the change intervals based on track time listed in the Boss supplemental manual. I'm sure it's conservative, but why do differently when this should have come from the on-track data and durability tests from the 302Rs during the 2010 racing season and the Coyote development testing?
 

Swiss Boss

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That's the same I found when looking into where UB was getting his 'estimated' HTHS numbers. The problem is taking an average, then applying 'about half' of a percentage from an unknown baseline, then using a number that might be a minimum spec value and doesn't even have the same dimensional units.

I see your point. Too many unknown. But it's the best I have found so far. Ford didn't give us any specs
But the base calculation is still the same. If the oil viscosity shear then HTHS will shear too.
Since they both depend on how much polymers they used to get the grade. The more polymers they use then the less HTHS you'll get and a faster shearing since shears is the destruction of the polymers
HTHS will just shear to a lesser extend (only half according to BITOG) of oil viscosity.
We are only talking about HTHS number. Vis@100 doesn't mean anything in our application.


I haven't found a recommended HT/HS spec. The only official recommendations I know of are the change intervals based on track time listed in the Boss supplemental manual. I'm sure it's conservative, but why do differently when this should have come from the on-track data and durability tests from the 302Rs during the 2010 racing season and the Coyote development testing?
I'm asking all these question to see if the oil I'm using (amsoil 10w-40) for now or different brand later will harm my engine. I know MC is good but like everything else you try to find something better with a good quality-price ratio.
 

Swiss Boss

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Also since there is a correlation between HTHS and oil pressure, what oil pressure are you reading?

I've never been under 80psi @WOT and around 20psi @idle after a 30 min session even during the warmer month.
 

Grant808

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I've been more concerned about oil temps over pressure on track. From a practical standpoint, I can't think of a way to make a pressure gauge useful for knowing when to back off or pit while on track and gunning for lap times. Well, except that a pressure gauge can tell you that your engine is already blown and puking oil on track. Although a meatball flag from a corner worker, smoke or flames could tell you the same. ;-)

I suppose if you're testing different oils, the pressure gauge might tell you more about what is different and as you suggest relate that to different HT/HS values. I have little interest in doing that especially after seeing what some of the other Bosses were running for oil temps when the ambient temps go up. Last season I wasn't too worried about temps either and just ran in cool weather, and in CA you can run in the fall and winter. This season, I've been wanting to run all year round and I think keeping temps in check in the spring/summer are more telling about what's going on with your oil and engine. That's why I added a Setrab 925 in series with the Boss cooler that I put on the GT last year.
 

Troponin

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Soooo, I am curious. Has anyone actually pulled an engine apart after being driven a hard 50-100k miles to see what REALLY happens to engines with these different oils?

On one side, I am reading about all these tests that Amsoil pulls way ahead of the competition, but then I read those tests are no longer applicable in today's engines. What gives them the edge in certain tests are the additives, but those additives are shown to be corrosive, and we no longer see the intense pressure engines used to see. Amsoil can't even get certified API, CI4 etc. All the testing we see are done by Amsoil, yet we never see these engines actually taken apart at higher mileage to see what they are actually doing in MODERN engines.
 

darreng505

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Soooo, I am curious. Has anyone actually pulled an engine apart after being driven a hard 50-100k miles to see what REALLY happens to engines with these different oils?

On one side, I am reading about all these tests that Amsoil pulls way ahead of the competition, but then I read those tests are no longer applicable in today's engines. What gives them the edge in certain tests are the additives, but those additives are shown to be corrosive, and we no longer see the intense pressure engines used to see. Amsoil can't even get certified API, CI4 etc. All the testing we see are done by Amsoil, yet we never see these engines actually taken apart at higher mileage to see what they are actually doing in MODERN engines.

A worthy point! And why people shouldn't just point to one fact or statistic or property of oil and then make blanket statements about it or denigrate other oils in that respect. No one here is an expert.
If people want to post their pet spreadsheets or oil analysis and let others derive their own conclusions fine. But some of the things said in this thread are PURE OPINION even SPECULATION, not backed by data and there are impressionable people acting on those opinions without the data to support it. That part worries me.
 
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senderofan

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Soooo, I am curious. Has anyone actually pulled an engine apart after being driven a hard 50-100k miles to see what REALLY happens to engines with these different oils?

On one side, I am reading about all these tests that Amsoil pulls way ahead of the competition, but then I read those tests are no longer applicable in today's engines. What gives them the edge in certain tests are the additives, but those additives are shown to be corrosive, and we no longer see the intense pressure engines used to see. Amsoil can't even get certified API, CI4 etc. All the testing we see are done by Amsoil, yet we never see these engines actually taken apart at higher mileage to see what they are actually doing in MODERN engines.

Yes....I had my engine partially taken down a few years back. Won't put folks asleep with the details....except to say that with 76,000 very hard miles on the engine.....the cylinder bores had nearly the same cross hatching and no wear ridge...like a recently prepped engine. The mechanic was extremely impressed and commented that modern synthetic oils changed at regular intervals...can make a huge difference in engine wear. I think this becomes even more important with our high tech engines that have really tight tolerances that also generate a lot of heat.

Trying to pin down data from oil manufacturers is difficult at best. i believe a lot of manufacturers make claims...some with tests that they've performed instead of independent labs...and fail to release exact data and / or testing procedures. Not sure what the motives behind that are...except perhaps they don't want brand X & Y to do the same test and publish that they have superior results.

I haven't had MC oil in my Boss since I purchased the vehicle new. I ran the 10w-40 oil in question for a track date in May....no issues that I could detect...but it was cold and raining. Will probably run Redline 5w-50 for track dates in the summer heat.

Wayne
 

Swiss Boss

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I've been more concerned about oil temps over pressure on track. From a practical standpoint, I can't think of a way to make a pressure gauge useful for knowing when to back off or pit while on track and gunning for lap times. Well, except that a pressure gauge can tell you that your engine is already blown and puking oil on track. Although a meatball flag from a corner worker, smoke or flames could tell you the same. ;-)

I suppose if you're testing different oils, the pressure gauge might tell you more about what is different and as you suggest relate that to different HT/HS values. I have little interest in doing that especially after seeing what some of the other Bosses were running for oil temps when the ambient temps go up. Last season I wasn't too worried about temps either and just ran in cool weather, and in CA you can run in the fall and winter. This season, I've been wanting to run all year round and I think keeping temps in check in the spring/summer are more telling about what's going on with your oil and engine. That's why I added a Setrab 925 in series with the Boss cooler that I put on the GT last year.

For the oil pressure it was more like if you pressure @60-70psi then you would know that the oil became too hot and too thin so you can back off instead of blowing your motor.

I'm too looking for a oil cooler. I still don't know if I should do a big ass cooler like a 948 and get rid of the Boss cooler or go with a smaller one like you did and keep the Boss cooler.
But anyway it seems that if your tracking in 90-100F ambient temp, your oil temp will see 280-290F easy even with the big ass cooler. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Which is why HTHS value should be more important than vis value @100.

In the end oil is oil, any full synthetic either xxw-40 or xxw-50 with a good HTHS rating should do the job and shouldn't worry too much about the additives as we are changing the oil every 3-4 month or less.

Now the question is : What is a good HTHS rating for this engine?

My answer : I don't know. Couldn't find any info on that.

My belief : The minimum for xxw-50 is 3.7 and the max I've seen for a 5w-50 is 5.0 (Redline) so I guess that anything between these 2 value should be good. All oil that meet ford recommendation are @3.7 (don't know about MC)
Too heavy oil is not good either.
 

guarnibl

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For the oil pressure it was more like if you pressure @60-70psi then you would know that the oil became too hot and too thin so you can back off instead of blowing your motor.

I'm too looking for a oil cooler. I still don't know if I should do a big ass cooler like a 948 and get rid of the Boss cooler or go with a smaller one like you did and keep the Boss cooler.
But anyway it seems that if your tracking in 90-100F ambient temp, your oil temp will see 280-290F easy even with the big ass cooler. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Which is why HTHS value should be more important than vis value @100.

In the end oil is oil, any full synthetic either xxw-40 or xxw-50 with a good HTHS rating should do the job and shouldn't worry too much about the additives as we are changing the oil every 3-4 month or less.

Now the question is : What is a good HTHS rating for this engine?

My answer : I don't know. Couldn't find any info on that.

My belief : The minimum for xxw-50 is 3.7 and the max I've seen for a 5w-50 is 5.0 (Redline) so I guess that anything between these 2 value should be good. All oil that meet ford recommendation are @3.7 (don't know about MC)
Too heavy oil is not good either.

Not trying to threadjack or anything -- but for oil cooler use -- the FRPP one doesn't include a t-stat for it right? I.e., if you're also using it as a street driven vehicle, isn't it likely the temperature of the oil will never reach ideal operating point before you start mashing on it? I believe the FRPP Extreme Duty oil cooler is useful for the track since most cars sit idle for quite a while (hour or so) before each race, thus it's a non-issue. Am I mistaken re: this? I know there's some other coolers out there that include a t-stat, but I didn't think the Ford one did.
 

Swiss Boss

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Not trying to threadjack or anything -- but for oil cooler use -- the FRPP one doesn't include a t-stat for it right? I.e., if you're also using it as a street driven vehicle, isn't it likely the temperature of the oil will never reach ideal operating point before you start mashing on it? I believe the FRPP Extreme Duty oil cooler is useful for the track since most cars sit idle for quite a while (hour or so) before each race, thus it's a non-issue. Am I mistaken re: this? I know there's some other coolers out there that include a t-stat, but I didn't think the Ford one did.

You're right it doesn't have T-stat. It's no problem the oil will still reach 180-200F. It will just take longer than before.
 

darreng505

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In the end oil is oil, any full synthetic either xxw-40 or xxw-50 with a good HTHS rating should do the job and shouldn't worry too much about the additives as we are changing the oil every 3-4 month or less.

If we've learned anything from these threads at all its that the above statement isn't true. lol
From the Boss manual. Take your own chances with additives....

ENGINE OIL RECOMMENDATION
Use Motorcraft SAE 5W-50 full synthetic or an equivalent SAE 5W-50
full synthetic oil meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C931-B.
Do not use supplemental engine oil additives, cleaners or other engine
treatments.
They are unnecessary and could lead to engine damage that
is not covered by Ford warranty
.
Change your engine oil and filter according to the appropriate schedule
listed in the scheduled maintenance information.
 
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Swiss Boss

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If we've learned anything from these threads at all its that the above statement isn't true. lol
From the Boss manual. Take your own chances with additives....

I'm talking about the additive that's already in the oil. Like every oil has beside racing oil. Which are mostly why you don't have to change your oil every 3 month on a normal driven car.

The manual is talking about the extra additives you can buy off the shelf at any auto parts store. Which are marketing bulls**t and will never put that in my engine.
 

Grant808

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Not trying to threadjack or anything -- but for oil cooler use -- the FRPP one doesn't include a t-stat for it right? I.e., if you're also using it as a street driven vehicle, isn't it likely the temperature of the oil will never reach ideal operating point before you start mashing on it? I believe the FRPP Extreme Duty oil cooler is useful for the track since most cars sit idle for quite a while (hour or so) before each race, thus it's a non-issue. Am I mistaken re: this? I know there's some other coolers out there that include a t-stat, but I didn't think the Ford one did.

If you use it in series with the stock Boss cooler, warm-up times aren't extended much, as far as I can tell. And that's with nearly double the cooling capacity of the FRPP kit.

For the oil pressure it was more like if you pressure @60-70psi then you would know that the oil became too hot and too thin so you can back off instead of blowing your motor.
The trouble with that is: do you set a warning light for pressures under a given value? I don't spend much time looking at gauges when I'm on track. Temp is easier to monitor and set warnings or have meaningful max values recorded.

I'm too looking for a oil cooler. I still don't know if I should do a big ass cooler like a 948 and get rid of the Boss cooler or go with a smaller one like you did and keep the Boss cooler.
But anyway it seems that if your tracking in 90-100F ambient temp, your oil temp will see 280-290F easy even with the big ass cooler. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't think you're wrong, but it would also depend on the altitude, humidity, and other important variables like driver and which track.


Which is why HTHS value should be more important than vis value @100.
No disagreement there. Just not a fan of the goofy math and speculation about different values.

In the end oil is oil, any full synthetic either xxw-40 or xxw-50 with a good HTHS rating should do the job and shouldn't worry too much about the additives as we are changing the oil every 3-4 month or less.
Still not sure about that for any track use. If one prefers to use Amsoil, I still think the 20w-50 or the Dominator 15w-50 would make more sense for the track.

Now the question is : What is a good HTHS rating for this engine?

My answer : I don't know. Couldn't find any info on that.

My belief : The minimum for xxw-50 is 3.7 and the max I've seen for a 5w-50 is 5.0 (Redline) so I guess that anything between these 2 value should be good. All oil that meet ford recommendation are @3.7 (don't know about MC)
Too heavy oil is not good either.
The caveat I would put on all of that would be: If you have oil temperature under control or within a controlled range. I think the hotter you go the heavier you'd want the oil.
 

Swiss Boss

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The trouble with that is: do you set a warning light for pressures under a given value? I don't spend much time looking at gauges when I'm on track. Temp is easier to monitor and set warnings or have meaningful max values recorded.
I try to make myself to get a quick look at the gauge when going on a straight and there isn't much traffic. I know that if my needle is pointing to the right I'm fine but if I see it in the middle or pointing to the left I know something is wrong.

The caveat I would put on all of that would be: If you have oil temperature under control or within a controlled range. I think the hotter you go the heavier you'd want the oil.
Totally agree with you there. I'm looking at switching for the 15w-50 for the warmer month but still have to find some info about drain interval since it's a race oil.
If it's every month I see no point using it since the cost will be too high and probably switch to Redline 5w-50 or keep the 10w-40 if I see no problem.
 

Braden

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I have virgin 10W-40 Amsoil AMO in my garage. I can collect a sample and have it tested and then test it during use if this would help settle any arguments. Plus I'd like more empirical evidence.

My question how do I have it tested?
 

UnleashedBeast

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Thank you Swiss, I just didn't have the energy to do it anymore.

I thought Dr. Oil was done? After posting this:

"This conversation is concluded, and is no longer deemed productive to this thread."

But I guess after 8,000 posts it is hard to quit!

Actually, my comment meant, I would no longer debate it with Grant, as the conversation was going nowhere. Swiss picked up where I left off, and doing an excellent job. He is saying it better than I said it myself.

I can't stop reading this subject. Very interesting but pretty difficult to understand.

Found another thread on BITOG about HTHS shears.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2501138

It seems that HTHS shears by half of what the viscosity shears. EX: if your oil shears by 10% then your HTHS only shears 5%

So quick math:
According to UB excel sheet, Motorcraft 5w-50 shears about 30% (average)
Then if MC 5w-50 has a HTHS @ 3.7 (still didn't find the number)
3.7 - 15% = 3.145

Using the math from BITOG as well, I estimated MC 5W-50 to have sub 4.0 HT/HS after shearing. Amsoil 10W-40 HT/HS is in the 4.3 range virgin, shearing about 2.5 to 5% after thousands of miles of use.

I see your point. Too many unknown. But it's the best I have found so far. Ford didn't give us any specs
But the base calculation is still the same. If the oil viscosity shear then HTHS will shear too.
Since they both depend on how much polymers they used to get the grade. The more polymers they use then the less HTHS you'll get and a faster shearing since shears is the destruction of the polymers
HTHS will just shear to a lesser extend (only half according to BITOG) of oil viscosity.

Viscosity Improving Polymers, or "VI". Motorcraft 5W-50 is loaded with them, and why the formulation rapidly shears to a light 40 grade, heavy 30 grade lubricant in the 1,500 to 2,000 mile range (street driven). HT/HS shears an estimated 50% less than cSt @ 100*C, as stated above. I can assure you, when Motorcraft 5W-50 shears, Amsoil 10W-40 at the same mileage will have a higher HT/HS. Both formulations in virgin form, I'd give the higher HT/HS to Motorcraft. The problem is, that doesn't last long.
 
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Grant808

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I think both of them are correct to a certain point but miss some information.

When Grant ask about HTHS I looked for more info and then I found this thread that is pretty interesting

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2000048&page=1

Now my question for track car because that's all it's about.

Which one protect the engine better?

10w-40(Amsoil) @ 4.3 HTHS
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...c-premium-protection-motor-oil/?code=AMOQT-EA
or
5w-50 (Castrol Edge) @ 3.7 HTHS
http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/9A32D5E3D16D0C5B80257C1600466D1C/$File/BPXE-9AJFL6.pdf

I couldn't find the HTHS for the motorcraft 5w-50 so if somebody has it please post it.
But looking for other brand carrying Ford specification it looks like the HTHS is @ 3.7 (minimum required for a 50 grade oil)

I'm not a brand loyalist just looking for the best quality for $$.
So far Amsoil 10w-40 has been great for that

Just wanted to point out that the HTHS spec for the Castrol Edge says its 3.7 cP minimum. The Amsoil just says 4.3.


I have virgin 10W-40 Amsoil AMO in my garage. I can collect a sample and have it tested and then test it during use if this would help settle any arguments. Plus I'd like more empirical evidence.

My question how do I have it tested?

OP doesn't seem interested in answering this...

Find a lab like this that will test ASTM D4683 on your virgin sample and test again after you change the oil.
http://www.intertek.com/analytical-laboratories/viscosity/
On this price list $125 for a VOA and $175 for used testing:
http://www.savantlab.com/images/2011.Dec_-_Testing_Services_-_Alpha.pdf

Would be nice to get some real numbers.
 

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