Seating Piston Rings...(Smoking Issues)

[cbr repsol]

I was thinking valve guide issue, But you said the builder checked them. How did he verify they were good? Just looking at them ?

Some people have different ways of breaking motors in. Some beat on them and some go nice and easy. I personally like to do 500 miles , with half to 3/4 throttle burst. changing freeway speed , not driving a constant 65 . Then after the 500 miles i change the oil again then anything goes.

 

[ElscottHavoc]

I honestly don't know how he verified it...I guess I just took his word that he did the correct procedure for checking them. After I blew a piston, the car was smoking, but not nearly as bad as it is now. I think it's very likely that there is a cylinder head issue, as I can't imagine the rings not being seated by now, even if they are hard to seat. I basically have taken the same procedure. The first 150 or so were just simple nothing above 3000rpm, but constantly varying speed and load (at least that's what the builder said they did). After I got the car, I put a little more load on, nothing crazy yet...just some higher rpms 5-6000, 3/4 up hills, letting engine brake, have done about 20-30 pulls under 3/4 throttle to 6000rpm. Doesn't seem to smoke under those loads (course no one is behind me to let me know). I let the car get to operating temp as well first before I go doing stuff like that. I've done full throttle under boost in second and then third gear on an open stretch of slightly inclined highway to 6000rpm the last 4 times. Everything runs strong, sounds good, then you stop and after a couple of seconds it starts to smoke. You rev it up, it really smokes.

Some guy said to rev it to 6000rpm for 1 minute on another forum. I'm not going to do that, as it sounds foolish kind of, but I did rev it up to like 4000rpm for about 5 seconds and noticed it kinda bogs, and it isn't smooth revving. It smokes up the whole neighborhood doing that haha. It almost feels like when revving it's backfiring and sometimes misfiring or something. I unplugged the battery last night, in hopes of resetting the timing. I heard improper fuel injector timing can cause issues, but I see this as unlikely. We'll see though.

A part of me wants to just believe it's the rings, but the fact that it potentially may not be scares me. To a degree, even if it is the rings, I want it to be the builder who breaks it in on his terms because let's say it's not the rings, and I assume it is, then I find out that I've been driving it under that assumption and making the problem worse, I don't want that on my head. I have about $8500 into the engine right now...that's parts, labor, removal, installation of engine and supercharger, as well as tuning. To have that money go down the drain under the assumption of something doesn't seem right.

If the builder thinks it's the rings, then by all means he can at least save both our butts by verifying that it's not something else.

I'll keep you posted as I find out anything new. Prolly won't be until this weekend that I get the car back to the builder...I did find out though that the break in oil was in fact a 10w-30. The car has about 400 miles on it now and the smoking doesn't seem to lessen at all. But yeah, once I figure out the culprit, I'll get back. That's my biggest pet peeve is when people ask questions on the forums and then leave it up in the air as to whether it was solved or not.

 

[cbr repsol]

It would sure be nice to have a video you could post.

White smoke: White smoke is caused by water and or antifreeze entering the cylinder, and the engine trying to burn it with the fuel. The white smoke is steam. There are special gaskets (head gaskets are the primary gaskets) that keep the antifreeze from entering the cylinder area. The cylinder is where the fuel and air mixture are being compressed and burned. Any amount of antifreeze that enters this area will produce a white steam that will be present at the tailpipe area.

If white smoke is present, check to see if the proper amount of antifreeze is inside the radiator and the overflow bottle. Also check to see if antifreeze has contaminated the engine oil. You can look at the engine oil dipstick, or look at the under side of the engine oil filler cap. If the oil is contaminated with antifreeze, it will have the appearance of a chocolate milkshake. Do not start the engine if the oil is contaminated with antifreeze, as serious internal engine damage can result.

How did antifreeze get in the oil or cylinder in the first place? The engine probably overheated and a head gasket failed due to excessive heat, thus allowing antifreeze to enter the cylinder (Where it is not meant to be).

Blue Smoke: Blue smoke is caused by engine oil entering the cylinder area and being burned along with the fuel air mixture. As with the white smoke, just a small drop of oil leaking into the cylinder can produce blue smoke out the tailpipe. Blue smoke is more likely in older or higher mileage vehicles than newer cars with fewer miles.

How did the engine oil get inside the cylinder in the first place? The car has many seals, gaskets, and O-rings that are designed to keep the engine oil from entering the cylinder, and one of them has failed. If too much oil leaks into the cylinder and fouls the spark plug, it will cause a misfire (engine miss) in that cylinder, and the spark plug will have to be replaced or cleaned of the oil. Using thicker weight engine oil or an oil additive designed to reduce oil leaks might help reduce the amount of oil leaking into the cylinder.

Black Smoke: Black smoke is caused by excess fuel that has entered the cylinder area and cannot be burned completely. Another term for excess fuel is "running rich." Poor fuel mileage is also a common complaint when black smoke comes out of the tailpipe. Black smoke out the tailpipe is the least cause for alarm. Excess fuel will usually effect engine performance, reduce fuel economy, and produce a fuel odor.

How did the fuel get into the cylinder in the first place? Some of the causes of excess fuel are a carburetor that is out of adjustment, a faulty fuel pump, a leaky fuel injector, or a faulty engine computer or computer sensor. If black smoke is present, check the engine oil as in the white smoke example to make sure excess fuel has not contaminated it. Do not start the engine if a heavy, raw fuel smell can be detected in the engine oil. Call your mechanic and advise him of what you have found.

I hope this helps you determine what could be causing your engine smoke, and the possible reasons behind the smoke.

 

[RussZTT]

Even if the rings are not seated all the way, it shouldn't smoke. There are 3 reason's you can be blowing smoke, PCV, valve seals or blow by. First, do a warm compression test and see what your results are. That is the first thing you need to do. Yes, you are running a thick oil, go with 10w-30 or close however that wont be causing your smoke issue. Using a cheap oil filter isn't your problem either.
Do a compression test first and post your results.

 

[na svt]

Even if the rings are not seated all the way, it shouldn't smoke. There are 3 reason's you can be blowing smoke, PCV, valve seats or blow by.

Valve seals don't "blow" and worn guides by themselves will not cause oil burning. Also, valve seats (worn, cracked) can't cause an engine to burn oil either. Oh, and if the rings haven't seated there will be some oil burning and blow-by is caused by the rings not seating.

Put some 5-30 conventional oil in the engine, more than 5qts (unless you wanna rod knock) and drive it like it was meant to be driven. It probably won't work though because the rings should have seated by now.

 

[IUP99snake]

Even if the rings are not seated all the way, it shouldn't smoke. There are 3 reason's you can be blowing smoke, PCV, valve seats or blow by. First, do a warm compression test and see what your results are. That is the first thing you need to do. Yes, you are running a thick oil, go with 10w-30 or close however that wont be causing your smoke issue. Using a cheap oil filter isn't your problem either.
Do a compression test first and post your results.

I second the compression test. While you've got the plugs out, check each plug and see what they look like. If ALL of the plugs are showing the same color, the issue is probably minor, where the rings just need to be seated properly, or it could be a PCV issue, or issue with the motor oil that's being used.

If you've got one or two plugs that are a different color from the rest of them, it's not a PCV issue, and it's not a general seating issue with the rights. Changing the oil won't fix it. It could be a broken ring, valve guide seal, or even a scored cylinder wall. Do you remember which piston failed on the previous motor? Pay special attention to the plug on this cylinder, because if this one is showing oil, it could be a problem that's left over from the previous motor that the builder failed to fix or diagnose properly. Maybe they didn't bore the block properly, or they didn't notice extra damage that may have taken place.

Speaking of boring the motor, ask them if they used a torque plate when the bored the cylinders. Not using a torque plate when boring the cylinders on an aluminum block can create a distorted cylinder (or 8 of them) when the heads are torqued down.

Good luck, and sorry to hear about the motor. You just want it to work right. I had issues with a new motor I had installed. The installer failed to fill the coolant properly and destroyed it.

Homer

 

[RussZTT]

Valve seals don't "blow" and worn guides by themselves will not cause oil burning. Also, valve seats (worn, cracked) can't cause an engine to burn oil either. Oh, and if the rings haven't seated there will be some oil burning and blow-by is caused by the rings not seating.

Put some 5-30 conventional oil in the engine, more than 5qts (unless you wanna rod knock) and drive it like it was meant to be driven. It probably won't work though because the rings should have seated by now.

I meant seals not seats.

 

[no_slow_svt]

didnt read everyones posts, but idling a brand new motor is probably the worst thing for new rings.
if he didnt seat the rings in the first 20 miles or 20 mins of run time, its going to be hard to seat them.

its best to seat them with a decent load on the motor, use conventional motor oil, and bleed the coolant right off the bat so it doesnt over heat on first start up.

if he failed to do those things, your going to have blow by issues. and make sure he knows he has issues. if its not right let him know right away its not right, otherwise this day and age on a performance car, they are not going to warrenty anything, and they will turn the blame right back on you.

good luck

 

[ElscottHavoc]

well i will try to get video when i have a chance...ive been debating on doing a compression test or leak down, but ive decided to not do anything, not even change oil...im bringing the car back up in the exact condition i received it...i found out some new and disturbing infortmation. im not sure if it was accident but the shop that tuned and reinstalled engine did a break in for a short period with with the 10w30 break in oil, but at some point synthetic blend was put in for a short period and quickly removed and replaced with break in oil again...im wondering if it was enough to glaze the cylinders, but i sill think theres something beyond that.

im now questioning the reliability of the shop, even if they have done many rebuilds...i guess ill tell them fix it right and be nice, then give them my opinion after its fixed and find a new tuner...unless they come up with a hell of an excuse as to why synthetic blend was used befroe it should have

 

[ElscottHavoc]

and i know who that will be...im going to go see bob kurgan once this is taken care of...heard nothing but good things, and ill just call it a vacation

 

[no_slow_svt]

well i will try to get video when i have a chance...ive been debating on doing a compression test or leak down, but ive decided to not do anything, not even change oil...im bringing the car back up in the exact condition i received it...i found out some new and disturbing infortmation. im not sure if it was accident but the shop that tuned and reinstalled engine did a break in for a short period with with the 10w30 break in oil, but at some point synthetic blend was put in for a short period and quickly removed and replaced with break in oil again...im wondering if it was enough to glaze the cylinders, but i sill think theres something beyond that.

im now questioning the reliability of the shop, even if they have done many rebuilds...i guess ill tell them fix it right and be nice, then give them my opinion after its fixed and find a new tuner...unless they come up with a hell of an excuse as to why synthetic blend was used befroe it should have

good move

and i know who that will be...im going to go see bob kurgan once this is taken care of...heard nothing but good things, and ill just call it a vacation

& good move:thumbsup:

 

[ElscottHavoc]

I know this is such an old post, but I wanted to give an update...

The car is back and is working good. No more smoke!!! The problem was the not the rings, in fact they had already been seated quite well. Rather the issue was with the cylinders which were out of round. The problem was that the builder (who had never had this issue in the past) bored the cylinders out without using a torque plate (to simulate the head sitting on the block). I'm not an engine builder, so I don't necessarily understand it all, but supposedly with aluminum blocks this is necessary.

The only issue I'm having now is a lightl clicking (not an exhaust leak) that happens when I barely tap the accelerator. It's most noticeable at highway speeds, 5th gear. You just barely tap the accelerator (like normal driving conditions I guess) and it does this wierd tapping/click/zapping sound. I've been told to try a higher viscosity oil, but we'll see. It doesn't do it when it's idling or being revved, just when you normally push it to gain speed. And if you push just alittle harder, then it goes away.

But thanks for everyones input and hope this will someday help a future issue for someone else. Actually, I hope no one has to have this issue in the first place.