• Welcome to SVTPerformance!

School me on E85

Discussion in 'The Distillery' started by Teej281, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. 04sleeper

    04sleeper Runs On "Liquid Gold" Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    12,335
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I'll try to clear up some confusion in this thread so bear with me.

    That is not accurate. Aluminum is fine running E85. You will not have any issues running it.

    I agree. :thumbsup:

    That would be all you would need.

    I will have to correct you on that. At cruise the car will only use 10-15% more fuel. At WOT is when you will need about 25-30% more fuel.

    It does burn cooler, but that's not 100% accurate. I have seen data that says it is 105.

    I have seen different results than the one single post by "black2003cobra". I wouldn't read it as the bible. In the test that state that "Heywood gives (100%) ethanol as having a MON of 89 and a RON of 107." I have seen reports of ethanol's RON is 129 (116 MON, 122 AKI). So who is correct? I would fair to side with E85 being 105 Octane. I have even seen it posted on the pumps.

    You won't have enough injector.

    That is 100% in the tune! The car will drive like stock if the tuner tunes it correctly.

    :rockon:

    Yes. It will drive just like stock if tuned properly. (I have tuned several)

    I agree. Return is a better mousetrap!

    80's will be just fine even at 400 RWHP if tuned correctly.

    And Josh, just because you had some bad luck with returnless systems doesn't mean they are ALL bad. I am running a returnless system right now and the car runs like stock!

    I do agree that the return is the better of the two though.
     
  2. shanezt

    shanezt corn fed Established Member

    Messages:
    2,562
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    VEGAS BABY!
    i run e-85 and 80's and the car truely does run perfect. when the temp is over 105 i have some trouble starting after a heat soak, nothing major i feel it is just the fuel boiling in the lines. i get 8mpg and fill up every sat and weds.


    i do have to disagree with sleeper on 1 thing. i can tell you from much experience with people adding e-85 to non e-85 vehicles, it does require about 30% more fuel during cruise and idle. every car i have had in the shop that had e-85 put in by mistake has adaptives pegged at +30%. this means the pcm is adding 30% more fuel to keep the a/f ratio at 14.7. now adaptives dont come into play at WOT so just cruising it does take at least 30% more fuel. this is the reason for the substantial drop in MPG.




    but i have to say it IS worth it.
     
  3. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC

    It's not just Black2003Cobra's post. When I first was doing research on E85 and what octane it was about a year ago many many government tests and sites and other lab sites and College research papers all had R+M/2 as around 95 or 96 octane. It has Research Octane as ~106. So this is not the first time or only time that I have heard/seen this. I just pulled up about 10 sites that all had E85 octane in the R+M/2 = ~96.

    So now the question is when comparing it to 87, 89, 91, 93, 100, 110 octane are those the Research octane numbers or is that the (R+M/2) number. If you are comparing Research to Research octane than that is fine and a correct comparison but if you are comparing E85 Research octane to say 93 Motor octane than that comparison is not the same. I am going to start an octane thread on Mod Fods.

    Also I am not the only one having Returnless fuel system problems. Also my opinion does not come from the fact I am having problems. Its the fact that you can flow more fuel for cheaper, you have less electronics to trouble shoot, you can make more power on smaller injectors which in the end can be a lot cheaper. I have been told by every tuner I have taken my car to that it needs to be converted to return style to make ease of tuning better. Again just my opinion from being there and spending the thousands of dollars on fuel systems that need to be upgraded or replaced.
     
  4. MVD

    MVD Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    1,898
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Location:
    Somewhere out there
    So (R+M)/2 would be 100 octane. That is the formula used for all advertised gas at the pump.
     
  5. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC
    Correct but depending what site you go to it claims Pump Octane (R+M)/2 as 95-98, 98-100, 100-106, and 112-118. When you actually see test data 95% of the time its in the 95-98 range. Most of these tests are colleges or the government. When you see people just spouting stuff off and no back up data its always the 100-105 octane and then one guy that has tons of links in his post and a really nice write up claims its actually 112-118 octane since that's what you have to run for gasoline to equal out in a car if that makes sense.

    Also they say the tests from the government and colleges are not correct because it's an environmentalist cover up.... Which is extremely stupid. Here is were I posted my question on the true octane:
    What is the True Octane of E85?
     
  6. 04sleeper

    04sleeper Runs On "Liquid Gold" Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    12,335
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I'm sorry your car ran bad on the returnless system Josh, but it still doesn't mean it can not work. I am living proof that it can and does work just fine with stock driveability. (Ask SVT03Chris. I just took him for a ride in my car last week when I installed a fuel system in his car and tuned it for E85.)

    Do I believe that when you get to this level the return style is better? Yes. But since I already had 95% of everything I needed, I saw no need to go full return. Had I not had any fuel system components purchased yet, I would have gone return as well as I do feel it is better like I mentioned earlier.

    As far as Octane, neither one of us is a chemist so we can read all the repots we want but I reality it really doesn't matter. E85 works! Period! I already have personal experience with the proof. I don't need anything more than that. Have you run, tuned or had any personal experience with E85? Or do you copy/paste what you read?

    Octane is not the "End All End" and should not be the only thing looked at when deciding fuel. If that's your only deciding factor then you are only getting half the story.

    Ethanol runs completely different than its gasoline counterpart. You really need to look at it from a completely fresh view.

    Bottom line is that it works, is easily available and is inexpensive. All positives in my book!
     
  7. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC

    Never said it can not work. The Original Poster was talking about upgrading his fuel system from what I took as a stock 2002 Mustang GT setup NOT A COBRA SETUP to support 700rwhp on E85. His two best options really are upgraded 03-04 Cobra system into his GT or just go Return style with Walbaro pumps, fore hat, bigger lines, regulator, and injectors. In my opinion from my experience I say for the swap HE is doing that I would go the return style route. Now if he had an 03-04 Cobra that was already modded like you and all he was looking at was low 700s then I might say his cheapest best route is to stay returnless.

    Also you know I am very pro E85 and have E85 parts installed on my car. Only thing lacking is fixing the flooding issue and tuning the car for E85. That's it. Now I will most likely go return style to fix my flooding problem and allow me to keep the 80lb injectors and not have to go to 105s or bigger. I personally do not care if the octane rating for E85 is 3 we know it works and we know that their are gains from it and that's all that matters. I was simply asking/stating about all the discrepancy with the octane rating for E85.
     
  8. shanezt

    shanezt corn fed Established Member

    Messages:
    2,562
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    VEGAS BABY!
    true it does work, smells good, and is pretty failsafe. 21psi and 110* heat and i pound on this car everyday. with 91oct i used to ping at 15psi. maybe some of the benefit is from cooler burning, but i would think most of the benefit would come from octane increase.
     
  9. 04sleeper

    04sleeper Runs On "Liquid Gold" Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    12,335
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I know josh. Just trying to make sure people understand there are reasons for both sides of the story. If I were in the OP shoes, I would go return without a doubt!

    I know you are getting set uo for E85. I didn't know your car had a current issue though. I'm sure you will get it worked out and I look forward to seeing your results.
     
  10. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    Ok, so the idea is to go full return style fuel system and I think I'm going to go triple pump system as well. Then for injectors, you think that 80's will be good enough? I'd like to push the envelop of what 2v's are usually capable of. The highest horsepower 2v I've seen was on here and it was running an MPH 2.8 kenne bell and them he put a 100 shot on it or something. My ideal built motor would be stock or higher compression(9.6:1 or higher) rotating assembly from John tymensky, trickflow heads with either cushman motorsports or modular powerhouse blower cams, and have the kb manifold ported to match the tfs heads. So you see I'm trying for huge power out of my 2v and this seems like the best fuel option for this goal. And I'll probably even retrofit a killer chiller to my setup too. And maybe I'll throw a shot on too just for a little extra squeeze every once and a while.

    Btw, does anyone know the name of the member on here with the 2.8 kenne bell on his car? I'd like to pm him and talk to him about his setup.
     
  11. skaarew04SVT

    skaarew04SVT Not quite fast enough Established Member

    Messages:
    2,088
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Op, glad you like my 10:1 build thread. Without e85, I would never have considered it.

    There is definently some misleading info in this thread. To clarify what 04sleeper and I know (amongst other memebers who have experience with e85):

    - E85 is not rocket science
    - E85 is 105 octane (R+M/2) when you appropriately calculate mixing E100 with 87 octane regular gasoline
    - E85 is highly oxygenated, around 30% or so. Burns much cooler.
    - You will burn 15 % or so more at cruise, and around 30% or so more at WOT
    - E85 chemical octane is similar to running C16, and makes similar power (at 9% of the cost per gallon)
    - Real world experiences have shown you can throw whatever boost and timing at it without detonation (of course be reasonable)
    - Burns a helluva lot cleaner, is unleaded, and fights carbon buildup

    I run triple gss342s, fore hat, yada yada yada, 80 lb injectors on my stock displacement, 2.3 whippled car. 3 pumps is not required for my setup, but i went big on fuel. As Sleeper mentioned, returnless systems work. I ran returnless with e85 no problems, made the power listed below in my sig. I decided to upgrade to return style, as it is plain and simple , easy to tune, and more predictable since you are mechanically regulating fuel pressure versus the computer regulating voltage via FPDMs in a returnless setup.

    I am sorry to see some folks cant quite get their returnless systems to work, but if you know how, and understand the basics, of tuning.....returnless systems work. You will have spikes here and there, nature of the beast.....but overall returnless systems do work. I chose return style to get rid of the little spikes, and simplify my setup.
     
  12. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    Yea, my reasoning for going with the high compression is just because I'm doing the e85 conversion. Lol but your whole build was the one that actually inspired me to go e85 as I've been on the fence ever since I started reading about it. But now I'm 99.9999% sure I'm going e85 and I'm gonna do it when I do my fuel system in the spring hopefully. So what kind of plugs would one run with e85 since it burns cooler. Still colder than stock plugs?
     
  13. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC
    My friend had a MPH built 2V with a Kenne Bell 2.8LH and a shot of nitrous (802rwhp/716rwtq w/75 shot). He sold it for a GT500.
    August27002.jpg
     
  14. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    That was the one!!! I wanna get those kinda numbers outta my car! Only with a 2.6 instead of a 2.8.
     
  15. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC
    Me too. I have been to many different tuners and have been down for 3 years. On the forth or fifth tuner I finally got the car drivable on the returnless system. Only thing is if you let it idle it dies out and you have to change the oil and all the spark plugs, which is a bitch when you have the behemoth inlet, to get the car to start again. Less than 200 miles I have been through 4 Mobile 1 Oil Changes, around 50 NGK spark plugs, new front bumper from accident pushing it on trailer one time, and back doctors for herniated disk this most recent time having to push it into the garage. This shit adds up.
     
  16. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    Moral of this story...go returnless to save on medical bills :D got it!!! Lol but yea, only going return style. Returnless is not an option for me.
     
  17. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC
    That was Sinultros's car. Not sure who owns it now. Gary added the Behemoth inlet which is not pictured. The car was bad ass but he sold that and his Cobra for a GT500 which his is beautiful. Talk to Tim at Mr. Norm's Garage he is the one that built and tuned it. Super nice guy and very helpful. I am building a 5.4L 2V right now and hope to run his cams.
     
  18. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    Gotcha gotcha gotcha. Lol I went to mr norms garage site and it's all Chrysler stuff. YUCK!!! saw a diff cover with a ram on it...made me wanna puke!!! But I'd entertain the 2.8 as well but I am doing the install myself. I remember with mph you had to let them do the install and stuff and I am more than capable of doing it myself and if I need help, my friend is a mechanic and he owns his shop and has a dyno to tune the car on. And I have only ever seen one used 2.8 kb for gt ever and it is now on a friends car on mustang forums(Tim99GT). His build is what I'd like mine to be except with high compression and e85. He has the tfs heads and cms blower cams I think.
     
  19. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
    14,154
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Location:
    Aiken, SC
    Ya Tim Barth that owned Modular Powerhouse (MPH) now works at Mr. Norm's Garage. I was told they will update the website and he still does some 2V stuff. You may be able to talk to him about buying and installing one or buying a used kit.
     
  20. Teej281

    Teej281 Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Location:
    Hanover, PA
    I might just have to do it. Is there a way to get ahold of him?
     

Share This Page