RoadForce Balancing.....

[OX1]

I can't afford new Hellcats (well, I'd at least have to pare down my fleet by 50% first, before I could ), so I grab other toys to play with when I can. Nabbed this Hunter 9712, RF balancer for a smokin deal a week ago.

I kept my old balancer and the main electronics case for my Hunter alignment system, in my house garage, as I don't want them exposed to much below freezing in the winter (don't heat the big shop all the time). My old balancer, a very small DSP7700 has done me well for 20 odd years, but time to open up some space.

Had to chop out 16" of my workbench, which I don't even use with a 3200 Sq. Ft. shop in the back yard.
(also sanded down and POR-15'd the beat up areas, supposedly Hunter makes a spray paint in "Hunter Red")

But the main reason I posted, was the statistics screens I stumbled on, that I thought some of you'all might find interesting. Almost 14K balances, it shows statistics on forces and deflection, split out by 1rst, 2nd, and 3rd Order Harmonics, total tire Road Forces and Lateral/Radial Runouts (some of it may be wheel runout, not sure yet), and Conicity/Plysteer lateral tire forces. Conicity I think is just like it sounds, the variation in diameter across a tire face (I have no idea what the heck Plysteer means though ).

Since I'm a newb on Road Force/runout-wheel/tire numbers, it will be nice to have a bunch of "what the hell is it supposed to be" numbers at my disposal, going forward.

Also won't hurt to have this info if you get your stuff "roadforced". You can ask for your before and after numbers and/or ask for your roadforce/runout info, when you just get new tires (and maybe have some clue what you are being told). It only takes a couple more minutes to measure the initial roadforce and/or tire/wheel runouts, even if they don't break down tire/wheel and do the force matching itself (which takes a ton of time to do right).

 

[13COBRA]

That's nearly the same model we have at the dealership. Hunter stuff is good stuff.

 

[SID297]

That's a nice score.

 

[OX1]

That's nearly the same model we have at the dealership. Hunter stuff is good stuff.

I believe Ford made you guys get rid of anything older than a 9722 (I stumbled on some service bulletin looking up info on these). Not sure what the difference is over the 9712.

Contents: • Introduction ‐ Wheel to Tire Runout Minimization Procedure (Page 2) • Dealer Requirements For Equip

I don't fully understand this

The “Match Without Rim Runout” procedure should become the machine default setting after you use it the first time. If it does not become the default than you will need to select it each time.

How do you do the match without rim/wheel runout? I thought the whole idea was to match tire/force/runout against low spots in the wheel.

 

[13COBRA]

Correct. Our new one is a Hunter Road Force Elite or something like that

 

[Blk04L]

How many times do you balance your tires to end up buying one? lol

Also, how much was it?

 

[OX1]

How many times do you balance your tires to end up buying one? lol

Also, how much was it?

I have 11 vehicles and 3 trailers. DD Fusion has summer/winter tires. Stang has winter storage/summer/and drag race setups. Classic bronco has 33's for street, and 36's for light wheeling. 79 bronco has nice 35's/wheels for summer/show, crappy old 35's for winter plowing...... Etc... No shit I probably have 100 (or more) wheels and tires on my property right now.

It was $2300. So far I had to put in a cooling fan for $35 and bearings in the forced roller for $30. Having Hunter guy come out and do full calibration on everything, not sure what that cost. Will be selling old balancer for $800-1000.

None of that money matters if one shmuck trashes my wheel or does not balance my tires correctly one time (both of which has happened). I'll spend $500 on a one use tool, that the entire job a mechanic could do for half that, every time.

I realize I'm not normal

 

[Blk04L]

I have 11 vehicles and 3 trailers. DD Fusion has summer/winter tires. Stang has winter storage/summer/and drag race setups. Classic bronco has 33's for street, and 36's for light wheeling. 79 bronco has nice 35's/wheels for summer/show, crappy old 35's for winter plowing...... Etc... No shit I probably have 100 (or more) wheels and tires on my property right now.

It was $2300. So far I had to put in a cooling fan for $35 and bearings in the forced roller for $30. Having Hunter guy come out and do full calibration on everything, not sure what that cost. Will be selling old balancer for $800-1000.

None of that money matters if one shmuck trashes my wheel or does not balance my tires correctly one time (both of which has happened). I'll spend $500 on a one use tool, that the entire job a mechanic could do for half that, every time.

I realize I'm not normal

That’s definitely worth it. Awesome buy.

 

[Crimson2v]

I believe Ford made you guys get rid of anything older than a 9722 (I stumbled on some service bulletin looking up info on these). Not sure what the difference is over the 9712.

Contents: • Introduction ‐ Wheel to Tire Runout Minimization Procedure (Page 2) • Dealer Requirements For Equip

I don't fully understand this

The “Match Without Rim Runout” procedure should become the machine default setting after you use it the first time. If it does not become the default than you will need to select it each time.

How do you do the match without rim/wheel runout? I thought the whole idea was to match tire/force/runout against low spots in the wheel.

The wheel runout checks for bent rims on the inside and outside lip of the rim. You have to perform this procedure prior to doing the road force portion.

 

[OX1]

The wheel runout checks for bent rims on the inside and outside lip of the rim. You have to perform this procedure prior to doing the road force portion.

You can't check the outside of most newer rims, correct?, they have no true machined surface. Maybe they just use the inside runout with tire mounted, assume it is good enough.

I was trying to think of a way to measure "outside" rim runout with the bead broken down, but tire still on rim. Some of these new ultra low profile tires are a real PIA to get on/off, always a chance to rip bead (especially on deep dish, like the wider Bullitts)

I wish I had this thing before I went on tire/wheel spree. Sounds a lot easier to do measuring bear rim first, to start.

 

[Crimson2v]

Hope this helps.

 

[OX1]

Hope this helps.

Not sure if you understand what I'm asking. That video shows how to measure rim runout, What I don't understand is "The Match, Without Rim Runout, Procedure" ??

How can you "Match" without rim runout? Maybe by balancing the wheel separately, and using it's low/high "spot" by weight, vs runout. Either way, still have to completely remove tire, which will be a PIA (but it is, what it is).

 

[specracer]

I have a Corghi 5000 touchless tire machine, waaay overkill for my needs, but, I completely understand what your talking about to have the "right" tools for the job. Ive now successfully mounted some VALUABLE wheels (wheels you cant simply buy anymore, so not just simply expensive). I too need a better balancer, but I cant make the space for a RF version.

Great score, enjoy it!

 

[OX1]

I have a Corghi 5000 touchless tire machine, waaay overkill for my needs, but, I completely understand what your talking about to have the "right" tools for the job. Ive now successfully mounted some VALUABLE wheels (wheels you cant simply buy anymore, so not just simply expensive). I too need a better balancer, but I cant make the space for a RF version.

Great score, enjoy it!

That may be my next "adventure". I added some toys to my ancient chinese machine (had to build my own mount for the main ram)

And my favorite new little bugger, right from china-flu off Ebay, is a "bead puller upper". Fits right up to almost any std head.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/MISC%20TRUCK-PARTS%20PICS/TOOLS/TIRE%20MACHINE%20BEAD%20RAM/BEAD%20PULLER/20200404_115551.mp4

but even with those, it's a crap shoot if I am going to eff up a rim, many times,.

 

[derklug]

When I first started, we had a bubble balancer. Times have changed.

 

[railroad]

I have been advised to use RF balancing twice. Both times it was to correct issues with tires or rolling vibrations.
Neither time was successful.
#1 was my 99 Mustang Cobra. Ford put in a new drive line trans, driveshaft and differential.
#2 was Michelin tires on my 13 F150 SC Lariat.
I am in the camp, if they do not balance out on a spin balance, something is out of specs. Using RF just shifts stuff around to cover the issue.

 

[OX1]

I have been advised to use RF balancing twice. Both times it was to correct issues with tires or rolling vibrations.
Neither time was successful.
#1 was my 99 Mustang Cobra. Ford put in a new drive line trans, driveshaft and differential.
#2 was Michelin tires on my 13 F150 SC Lariat.
I am in the camp, if they do not balance out on a spin balance, something is out of specs. Using RF just shifts stuff around to cover the issue.

Problem is, they can balance out in what seems like a reasonable manner, and still be out of round or have some other issue you don't know about until they are on the car. Even then, which tire is it?

I do agree, if I tire or wheel is that effed up, this thing won't fix them. But I hope it's just another tool for me to know, especially on a new tire, it's just not right out of the box (while I still have a chance to send it back). I've had quite a few over the past 10 years that weren't.

 

[offroadkarter]

Problem is, they can balance out in what seems like a reasonable manner, and still be out of round or have some other issue you don't know about until they are on the car. Even then, which tire is it?

This is 100% correct. I ran into an issue on my SC400 where the tires balanced out fine on a normal balancer but the car still shook at highway speeds. Putting it on a roadforce showed the tires were exceeding something like 50lbs + of roadforce runout, I imagine they had flat spotted years ago since the car did a lot of sitting before I bought it. The new tires I put on showed a max of 5lbs as a comparison.

You're now the second person I know who has a hunter roadforce machine in their home, a friend of mine has a GSP9700 which is what I used to figure out what was going on with my lexus.

 

[01yellercobra]

This is the kind of stuff I want to have when I grow up and have a real shop.

 

[93Cobra#2771]

Nice! Be curious to see what "plysteer" ends up being, although I have my suspicions what it is. I suspect it has to do with how the plies are laid in the carcass and whether they are parallel to the road when in motion or perhaps not quite and causes a pull one way or another. That's my non-educated guess.